MSCCG

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".



I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts"

Veg

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".



I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </BLOCKQUOTE>

I will follow you with this:

Also when a person has repeated an action time after time it will be automaticated into his mind and he is more and more likely to repeat the action without having to be told to do it.

pelicanstuff

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".



I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, wouldn't Milan Baros have given up dribbling to nowhere years ago? I still believe instincts are the most influential aspect of style of play. Rooney doesn't go for the lobs cause he's been trianed to or tutored in doing so. Obi Mikel doesn't dive into tackles cause the manager tells him to. It's just the way that people play, and can't all be boiled down to formulae or numbers.

MSCCG

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".



I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, wouldn't Milan Baros have given up dribbling to nowhere years ago? I still believe instincts are the most influential aspect of style of play. Rooney doesn't go for the lobs cause he's been trianed to or tutored in doing so. Obi Mikel doesn't dive into tackles cause the manager tells him to. It's just the way that people play, and can't all be boiled down to formulae or numbers. </BLOCKQUOTE>

The Law of effect is basic psychology mate, it applies to all humans in all behaviour. I know next to nothing about Milan Baros but I know that hes not a Ronaldo style dribbler, and Ronaldo dribbles because they work out. He shoots more now because he happened to get it right once and started doing it more often. Same with Fabregas. Rooney lobs often because they work for him, if they didn't work he wouldn't try them. Same thing, Rooney is dribbling less now because they don't work so well, and he drops deeper now because they work for him too. Its nice to think about an innate biological sense of instinct for football but for us humans we only have instinct for the most basic of things because of our relatively small hypothalamus. Sorry for all that technical stuff I'm trying to study at the same time.

pelicanstuff

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".



I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, wouldn't Milan Baros have given up dribbling to nowhere years ago? I still believe instincts are the most influential aspect of style of play. Rooney doesn't go for the lobs cause he's been trianed to or tutored in doing so. Obi Mikel doesn't dive into tackles cause the manager tells him to. It's just the way that people play, and can't all be boiled down to formulae or numbers. </BLOCKQUOTE>

The Law of effect is basic psychology mate, it applies to all humans in all behaviour. I know next to nothing about Milan Baros but I know that hes not a Ronaldo style dribbler, and Ronaldo dribbles because they work out. He shoots more now because he happened to get it right once and started doing it more often. Same with Fabregas. Rooney lobs often because they work for him, if they didn't work he wouldn't try them. Same thing, Rooney is dribbling less now because they don't work so well, and he drops deeper now because they work for him too. Its nice to think about an innate biological sense of instinct for football but for us humans we only have instinct for the most basic of things because of our relatively small hypothalamus. Sorry for all that technical stuff I'm trying to study at the same time. </BLOCKQUOTE>

The point about Baros is that he will dribble past 5 men and end up nowhere. Since it's not been much to good to him for most of the last five years, your argument would suggest that he would start doing it less. He hasn't. I just figure that people will do different things with the ball at their feet or head or whatever. Maybe a lot of it is learned, but I would say in that case it would usually be learned at a far younger age than players start off at on the game.

GazTheDoood

WHS :thup:

Klimowicz

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </BLOCKQUOTE>

you learn things as you play more regular football, at any age. i have no idea how i developed into the player i am (or was ), apart from copying what i saw in matches on tv when i was at school. eventually, i matched a certain style of play with my natural pace, first touch, finishing etc. i did my metartarsal years ago, and i lost the ability to shoot from range for a long time, but my dribbling and left foot use improved greatly.

i said it in an older topic about PPMs, go back to 1996 and tell Ryan Giggs that he would become a less offensive central midfielder in 10 years time. he would laugh at you.

if you go back to previous versions of CM/FM, Thierry Henry was an AM/FL, AM/FRLC, ST, FC etc. players will always develop new skills and become accustomed to new positions which utilize their new found abilities.

young players developing trademark moves depends on how eager & quick to learn they are, and how easy they adapt. there are natural footballers who have practiced certain abilities from youth and good learners who are willing to improve themselves to the same level as the natural footballer.

to suggest that you are too old at 22-28 to learn anything on the pitch is the way FM works, not the way of the world.

Ackter

1) Youngsters need to arrive with PPMs, in a way which Ched has covered

2) External influences - ie tutoring from older players, but also coaches should have preferences which can rub off on the right player

3) Managerial en/discouragement - You should simply be able to take a player aside in training and say "Stop ******* doing that" or "Try and drift wider more often" for example.

SCIAG

Coaches with preferences should affect the player all through his career, not just when he's u21. I know Steve Coppell's done a lot of work with Glen Little to change his style of play (only for Little to be permantly injured, the irony )

Tom Leeburn

All good ideas! particularly coaches preferences.

mourinho/arsene types could result in their players aquiring the ppm argue with the ref!

I agree with Ched that it is a major issue, but i disagree with his solution.
e.g only rooney type players can chip/clinical finishers place shots.

I think half the fun of ppm's is the introduction of a bit more randomness -cheds ideas are too prescriptive.

in the future with regens if ppms are randomnly generated it shout be linked to the players attributes however. e.g tries long shots should require long shots above 10 etc