retired_janay731

Hi all,

After reading some useful threads like TT&F II: The Rebirth of Tactical Theory and for my experience with FM 2007 i´ll try to give an approach for how to play without ball.

My test: Werder Bremen 4x4x2 diamond (4x1x2x1x2)

Team example: no tranfers

* mentality sliders between ( )

GK - Wiese (8)
WB R - Fritz (10)
DC - Naldo (6)
DC - Mertesacker (6)
WB L - Womé/Shulz (10)
DMC - Vranjes/Baumann (8)
MC (left) - Borowski (12)
MC (right) - Frings (12)
AMC - Diego (14)
FC - Klasnic/A. Hunt (16)
ST - Klose (18)

Rule of two (defensive) vs (ofensive)

a) When defending a lead, you should consider defending little deeper. I suggest reducing mentality slider 2 clicks to the left.
b) Same when need to score goals, but in this case click 2 sliders to the right (and set D-Line to first notch of high).

Team must be always compact and players should be relatively close for good passing game.

Now, how to play without ball when your team don´t have possesion? Must use mentality accordingly with Defensive Line, Closing Down and Marking

The way i see global strategy:
- team must play hight tempo (high closing down and some tight zonal marking) to quickly gain ball;
- team must play low tempo (rest and control/pass) when in possesion -> simply choose low tempo (less chances, but higher quality)

Theorem: to quickly gain ball, closing down should be some how high for certain players (workrate, pace, stamina, for example) but those at central field must maintain their positions. Conclusion: must prepare to closing down at the flanks.

* mentality sliders between ( )
** closing down sliders between [ ]

GK - Wiese (8) [4]
WB R - Fritz (10) [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often]
DC - Naldo (6) [first notch of mixed]
DC - Mertesacker (6) [first notch of mixed]
WB L - Womé/Shulz (10) [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often]
DMC - Vranjes/Baumann (8) [first notch of mixed]
MC (left) - Borowski (12) [first notch of often]
MC (right) - Frings (12) [first notch of often]
AMC - Diego (14) [last notch of low: +1 click = mixed]
FC - Klasnic/A. Hunt (16) [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often]
ST - Klose (18) [last notch of low: +1 click = mixed]

Exception

a) If you got a central defender (DC) with some nice attributes: pace, teamwork, stamina, tackling > 15 or 16 then change to -> [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often]
b) Use equal statement when choosing one of your forwards to closing down opposite defenders (take a look at their stats)

And how about zonal marking?

Well, while most of the players will try to constantly catch ball (always pressing, don´t let other team "think"), those who don´t closing down so much should stick to tight zonal marking

With 4x4x2 diamond (4x1x2x1x2) you have 2 important triangles:

a) defensive with 2 DC´s and DMC
b) ofensive with AMC and 2 FC´s

* AMC don´t have (normally) attributes for high closing down and tight zonal marking

a) at least one DC and DMC should cover a zone and get close to player entering it (tight zonal marking). Remember these players don´t closing down a lot because is important to keep central positions up the field

b) at least one FC should be sticked for tight zonal marking. Preferably the one (Klose, in this case) which lower closing down. This way, he can´t tire quicker but can catch some ball entering his zone (near goal).

Hope you enjoyed it

retired_rebebeccag

That's a good post mate.

Good summary of the current thinking (not quite a consensus, but gaining credibility) for those who may get a bit lost with all the contrdictory thoughts throughout the many pages of TT&F thread.

retired_rebebeccag

By the way, that's not to say I agree with it all! But it's a good summary of the majority view.

retired_janay731

Thanks a lot Kristian.

Obviously you don´t need to agree completely with me and the way we learn more from the game is a) playing it; b) discussing arguments eachother.

Well, i continuing with theorem (for 4x1x2x1x2) i´ll add tackling details. But first, must write 2 pre-requisites about it.

1 - one DC will play medium tackling, while other will be set easily.

Remember exception...

DC - Naldo (6) [first notch of mixed]
DC - Mertesacker (6) [first notch of mixed]

a) If you got a central defender (DC) with some nice attributes: pace, teamwork, stamina, tackling > 15 or 16 then change to -> [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often]

So, if one (suppose is Naldo) will close down a little more, the other one (Mertesacker) will go for 50-50 tackles (medium)

Werder Bremen (at the beginning, without training effect) have this players stats:

Mertesacker: pace (14), teamwork (14), stamina (13), tackling (15).

Naldo: pace (13), teamwork (15), stamina (16), tackling (15).

They both have same tackling but a) Naldo got 15 agression and 14 determination; b) Mertesacker got 15 agression and 16 determination.

Conclusion: Naldo will close down a little more -> last notch of mixed but Mertesacker will be set for medium tackling (and maybe consider give him tight zonal marking)

Resume for all tackling details: between ( ) bold

GK - Wiese (8) [4] (easy)
WB R - Fritz (10) [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often] (medium/hard)
DC - Naldo (6) [first notch of mixed] (easy)
DC - Mertesacker (6) [first notch of mixed] (medium)
WB L - Womé/Shulz (10) [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often] (medium/hard)
DMC - Vranjes/Baumann (8) [first notch of mixed] (medium)
MC (left) - Borowski (12) [first notch of often] (medium/hard)
MC (right) - Frings (12) [first notch of often] (medium/hard)
AMC - Diego (14) [last notch of low: +1 click = mixed] (medium)
FC - Klasnic/A. Hunt (16) [last notch of mixed: +1 click = often] (medium)
ST - Klose (18) [last notch of low: +1 click = mixed] (easy)

For wing backs, medium or hard tackling will depend on which type of player they are facing.

1 - If opponent is a fast/creative winger (with good dribbling skills), then is better to go for 50-50 tackles as our wing may have difficulty on 1x1 issues;

2 - if opponent is a winger with good passing skills (more technique with nice cross stats), then is preferably to set hard tackling.

Finally, for both MC´s (Borowski and Frings) you should start game with hard tackling (just to maintian respect ehe) and if one got yellow card reduce immediately to medium tackling. Other aspect is if you´re leading score. Is more important to control ball (possesion) so medium tackling could be best option because you should try to igone danger free kicks.

retired_mgavlick

Interesting. I would like to know what kind of improved results you get by experimenting with and splitting closing down and tackling settings.

Nice thread.

retired_mellieknow

What about D-line and Creative Freedom?

Thanks for the good thread :thup:

retired_monica90

Good stuff Myst.

I found that increasing closing down for my full-backs in particular really tightened up my defence. I think closing down is utterly crucial, possibly up there with mentality in it's importance.

retired_pacman/allan

WHS

retired_janay731

wwfan and Asmodeus,

Thanks for your nice words. It´s from people like you i learn a lot about tactical issues and make me think about other possibilities.

Garate,

In other words: when your team dominate possesion but need to score goals - scenario b) - maybe it will be good idea to put D-line up the field. This can result better at home games against less skilled teams. Pay attention if opponent FC´s and AM C are relatively fast/creative or some through balls can put your GK in 1x1 situations

Finally, as you notice my approach was dedicated for how to play without ball when your team don´t have possesion?

So, i tryied to aggregate various aspects (Defensive Line, Closing Down, Marking and Tackling) in a global perspective (strategy > tactic), not forgetting to considerate individual instructions.

Theorem: to quickly gain ball, closing down should be some how high for certain players (workrate, pace, stamina, for example) but those at central field must maintain their positions. Conclusion: must prepare to closing down at the flanks.

Soon i´ll add more insight for what to do with ball when your team have possesion? .

I really believe in the importance of 2 major aspects of modern football:

a) transition attack -> defend (when loosing the ball)

Objective was to make a relation between mentality vs D-line, closing down, marking and tackling.

b) transition defend -> attack (when team gains possesion)

I´ll write (after some practical tests) the relation between mentality vs width, passing style and creativity.

Last job is to aggregate both perspectives (transition defence-attack) adding details about other team instructions like focus passing, free role (playmaker) and target man advantages.

Ciao
- Myst

retired_ahrumshin

I took your suggestions on a test drive in a fairly skilled 2nd season Middlesbrough team, and i must say it works very well. Especially closing down and hard tackling on the wings seems to do a difference. Results so far:
West Ham 1-1 (A)
Reading 4-0 (H)
Rosenborg 4-0 (H, CL)
Leeds (2-1) (H)
Lyon (2-1) (A)

One draw and four wins! The post match commentary has been: awesome display by M..., jolly good football and impressive blah blah (you know the drill ). Anyhow, I'm not skilled at tactics, but since your advice is rather hands-on and easy to comprehend I gave it a shot. it seems to put a lot of pressure on the opposition and creating a solid number of chances.

And as you said, you gotta watch out for yellow (soon to be red) cards at the wide positions! Looking forward to the next chapter, good job!

Btw: I assume you've tested this for more than 5 matches as above - Does the opposition grow accustomed to the tactics, i.e. do you after X number of matches tweak positions or other tinhgs to counter their "learning ability"?