retired_icee

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flecky:
My point is that yes, it is much easier when you start with a big club, but its harder to manage in the big leagues than the lower leagues.
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I agree with this to a certain extent.

With the top top teams - Roma, Milan, Man U, Barca - then it is far easier to win then it is in the Lower Leagues.

With the teams that are in the second or third tier of the top leagues - West Brom in England, Como in Italy, etc - I find it much tougher to succeed with those teams then in LL's because, as you mentioned previously, you can get a long way in the Lower Leagues with a solid tactic and one or two good signings.

I feel that can largely be attributed to the fact that the talent pool seems so even in the Lower Leagues (a fault of the 1-20 rating system imho).

retired_jessieb

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So its tough right at the start, easy in the middle then gets hard again as you're nearing the end.
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Yeah I'd agree with that, especially if you are stuck with a small stadia with little or no chance of expansion. You might have a fair amount of cash, but sometimes the board won't allow you to outlay the weekly wage that the big boys ask for.

Once you get over the inital hump and get promoted, the next higher division definatley is an easier road to travel apone. It's gets tougher as you near the top as you can't in most cases sign the top notch players. Club reputation comes into play, and unless you have a full trophy cabinet the club's repuation is still low dispite being in the top division. [IMG]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif" alt="frown[/IMG]

retired_blondielovespink

To say it's easier to manage clubs like Seixal which LFC has taken so well, after years of pummeling, than it is to manage Man Utd at the beginning is silly. The only excuse to take a team that Man U, Liverpool, etc, at the beginning is to learn the game mechanics with your favorite club. There are no financial issues to concern yourself with, as you get money thrown at you hand over fist, your players are already all-world in calibre, so there's no challenge there either. And most who start at such sides just go look for their favorite players and buy them in, regardless of whether or not your scouts found them, so there's no challenge there either.

Now, as some have said, LLM isn't just about playing in lower leagues. It's about an ethic. Read the updates and you'll see lots of people (including myself) have teams in the top-flight of their league. But we did it via finding quality players via our scouts and staying within limited budgets.

I am more sympathetic with those who take a mid-tier first division team and start there. A team like Auxerre for instance, at the start of the game, which has no hope of stadium expansion, a limited budget, but quality players. You still have many of the same challenges in keeping the side together. You can't just throw money at your problems and make them go away. Then you get the virtue of top league management (you know the players), with many of the challenges of LLM. When you look at the wage bill and know there is no way you can ever get gate receipts to match wages, you have a bonafide challenge in the financial department. Playing elite teams from the start is a no-brainer.

Now if you fight your way through to get one of those elite team posts, more power to you. But that's not forbidden by LLM ethics either.

retired_tchockfan

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shawng1:
To say it's easier to manage clubs like Seixal which LFC has taken so well, after years of pummeling, than it is to manage Man Utd at the beginning is silly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's not what the discussion is about. It's about managing in the top divisions rather than the top teams in those divisions. Your Auxerre example is a much better comparison.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Taipan sez:
It gets tougher as you near the top as you can't in most cases sign the top notch players. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, as I've said before, is where I disagree. You can't sign the cream of the crop, but the AI is (IMO) quite poor in recognising who will become a world-class player in a particular position. Given 20M pounds and a year and I reckon you could put together a team that can beat any European team. With 5M pounds and a premiership team reputation (of any sort) I think you can challenge for the title in any European league.

Needless to say, I think the second one is a more interesting challenge, because you have to make good use of limited and imperfect resources. Scouts are just as important at this level, and the financial management at times has more variety than at the lower levels, where you are more likely to be scrimping and saving all the time.

CM4 is likely to provide a very different slant on this argument, with less money and hopefully an improved AI. It will be interesting to have this discussion again a while after its release.

retired_blondielovespink

SFI,

Also, as has been noted though, England makes it way too easy, your reputation is inflated, the Premiership has money thrown at it so that even a team that is just promoted, if it can stay up in year one, becomes rich enough to overcome reputation issues with money. Plus, as you noted, the AI isn't as good at recognizing talent as the player is.

Leagues that have smaller TV contracts and lower reputations are much more competitive for the player this way as breaking into the big clubs of those leagues is much more difficult than it is to break into the Premiership.

retired_tchockfan

I haven't played in England in CM 01/02 (except for the Leigh challenge). My comments were based on experience in Brazil, Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland, Australia, USA, and Italy.

KingsbayYHPE

Flecky. Got you now, and I agree to a certain extent. When you're promoted quickly from Conference to Premiership it takes a while for the reputation of the Club to catch up, thus making it harder to sign the really good players, regardless how much money the game throws at you.

The EPL gives you £12m TV Money, and you'll have whatever funds you've got left after Stadium expansion for entry to the Premiership, and the season ticket money.

The problem lies, again, with the game, in that a player that may improve your squad considerably, and may be valued at under £1m, won't come for a vastly inflated fee then you see him going to Rangers for £525k a couple of months later (Does my bitterness show? [IMG]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="big grin[/IMG])

So I'd say, yes, it's more difficult to win the EPL with an erstwhile LLM Club than it is to win with a big club from the start.

retired_seabury

I've never got anywhere near reaching the EPL with a promoted Conference side (playing solely to LLM guidelines), so I'm afraid I can't comment - actually come to think of it I've never got that close to getting a Conference side promoted yet [IMG]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif" alt="wink[/IMG] [IMG]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="big grin[/IMG]

retired_berrysale

Every time I think I'm going to win the Portugese Premier League with Seixal, I start falling away again. It is tricky to break into the top 4 mainly due to the inconsistency of my squad.

I really can't comment of running a top team because I don't enjoy it.

KingsbayYHPE

So I've been wracking my brains trying to figure out a thread which basically says "Isn't it harder as you go up the Leagues, especially when you reach the top one"?

Bloody Hell! You wanna take some grammatical lessons from Delia Smith, Flecky [IMG]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif" alt="wink[/IMG] [IMG]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="big grin[/IMG]