retired_roshawnda82

This question has often troubled me. In terms of the knowledge base upon which the following is predicated there a couple of preliminary points to be made. I'd be really interested to read everyone's thoughts on this matter, especially if this debate has already been definitively answered somewhere by either users running tests or SI giving a proper answer.

Firstly, a player with a very low current ability is less likely to have a high rating in any given attribute so the following situation may arise less frequently:

Player A
Pace 15
Acceleration 15
Current Ability 1

vs

Player B
Pace 15
Acceleration 15
Current Ability 200

Who wins the race?

I used pace in that example as when both players don't have the ball it seems to me that pace and acceleration are the only attributes involved (aside from their starting position relative to the ball) and thus is a simpler comparison. Other attributes could be used as an example such as jumping and heading, although here obviously other attributes would also be relevant.

But what I'd like to know is whether ability can actually override attributes in certain situations. From many instances I've observed when playing match days I do in fact believe this to be the case. (I think many users - certainly on another well known...ahem forum - are alluding to this wider debate when they claim that "Tevz only 2Ft tal n he out jmp my CB wiv 18 jumpin 18 headin" or the like). To me it often seems like when I'm up against so-called 'better players' who (I assume - as I don't use FMM but in the example just used I think it's fair to assume that Tevez has been given a higher current ability than say Titus Brambel....) have a higher current ability that they just generally have that 'edge' which (in some cases) their relevant abilities don't seem to justify.

Thus, in the follow scenarios are purposely made a slightly closer match in terms of currently ability than the above extreme example. What would happen if there was a race between:

Controls
Both players are equidistant to the ball in respect of their starting positions.
Both players have the same 'condition/fatigue' level.
Both players have the same moral.

B]Example 1[/B]

Player A
Pace 15
Acceleration 15
Anticipation 15
Determination 15
Work Rate 15
Current Ability 150

Player B
Pace 15
Acceleration 15
Anticipation 15
Determination 15
Work Rate 15
Current Ability 160

Who wins this race?

Example 2

Player A
Jumping 15
Heading 15
Strength 15
Bravery 15
Anticipation 15
Aggression 15
Determination 15
Current ability 150

Player B
Jumping 15
Heading 15
Strength 15
Bravery 15
Anticipation 15
Aggression 15
Determination 15
Current Ability 160

Who wins this header?

retired_shaysheaa

Very interesting point, I don't know the answer but something worth discussing.

Not sure what part training would play in this. Example, even though the stats may be identical, if you are training one player more intensive on say fitness, maybe that would provide an edge ?

In the "Tevez" (I'll call it that) example I actually believe that many other stats rather than jumping & heading contribute. Example, if Tevez has much higher acceleration, technique & anticipation he could get the edge on a seemingly superior defender by his movement and jumping tehnique...

If we assume on the last two examples that the players are absolutely identical in every stat (even the ones not posted) I would imagine one of two things would happen.

The first conclusion would be reached over, say 50 races. I would imagine that in a simple sprint race it would be fairly evenly split.

However taking other things into account (the pitch, match odds, maybe even the weather and wind or if one of the teams are dominating or particularly fired up) this player may well come out on top more often than the other...

Like I say, not definative but my opinion...

retired_roshawnda82

Cheers for your constructive contributions macca 72 That name doesn't happen to refer to Jason McAteer does it by the way?

Anyway, back on point

I'm not sure about say fitness training on intensive etc, and I don't really see any way to test this. One thing I did think of was that behind the scenes attribute is actually rates 1-100 so you could actually have the situation where e.g. a 15.2 in pace (shown as 15 pace) loses to a 15.8 in pace (still shown as 15 pace too).

I agree completely that in the Tevez example and in real life that you often can see a very intelligent little forward nip in and win a largely uncontested header - a prime example of this was Owen against Boro at the weekend. The reason the forward can do this is that their speed, anticipation, intelligence etc as well as the quality of the ball in, allows them to think and move quicker than the defender, the result being that they get their head to the ball first. This is a different situation though to a slow high lump forward that the big Titus Bramble defending sees coming and will win in the air nearly every time. Again, in this situation, if luck favours the brave, well either Tevez is very brave (which he is by the way in FM and real life) or FM favours players with high ability.

I agree its possible to think of very long list of other factors outside the control but for me this goes off point. The debate is assuming all those other factors were equal...how does the match engine calculate the outcome of a given situation?

retired_shaysheaa

The name relates to my surname unfortunately !!

You make a perfectly valid point, however thinking about it let me try and explain my theory...

I guess what i'm saying is that all things are never equal. In FM there will always be a situation. In a race between two exactly equal players, the objective of the race would take over.

If both the players were central midfielders, one would most certainly be attacking and one defending, therefore the objectives, and the outcome would be different.

I do think that if the race was purely a sprint and mathmatically equal, the outcome would be a draw every time, or balanced 50/50 over the course of time.

Hence why all things can never be equal.

The Tevez example can be put down to randomness. Even a defender with 20 for every stat, and ability of 200, will not win every header or win every sprint.

Hence why you can't even win every game even if you edit your whole team to be perfect.

retired_roshawnda82

Yes but the point of the post is regarding attributes vs ability. I understand what you're saying but you go a bit of topic....

Are you saying that if the race was purely a sprint and all other things being equal, that it is the attributes that are relevant, and that the current ability of the players is irrelevant? I'm suggesting that this often does not seem to be the case.

That's essentially what I'm trying to discuss and prove/disprove here. Not whether other factors, be it randomness or match and position specific objectives etc (in addition to attributes and current ability) are relevant. We all know they are.

retired_elpata

Attributes make a player so id have to go for that. Potential and ability just determine what rep he has and how good all of his attributes can be improved.

If 2 players had equal stats for everything but different ability and went for same challenges ec it should be 50/50 outcome.

And it makes sense too imo, its why you can take and decent striker with half decent stats but low ability and he can still perform in the top tier.

retired_roshawnda82