donald

In July 2001, the 4th actually, the idea of making a monthly challenge came about. This would be called the LLaMa of the Month challenge. I am revisiting this topic for 2 reasons, 1. there seems to be a lack of discussion threads so I am taking up rekwobs crusade to start a new topic every day, and 2. ever since they ended I have been wondering what went wrong.

The purpose of this thread is not to restart the challenges, but to offer an overview to new and old users of this board of what took place and what went wrong. The reason I am starting this topic is also that I was the one who started the thread about it and as such I have spent a lot of time wondering what went wrong. To do it all in one post would be exhaustive for the readers so I'll split it up into multiple posts, please wait with your replies until i have made the last of these initial posts, I'll tell you when that is done, but don't worry there won't be that much time between them.

As I said it started on the 4th of July in this thread or at least this is the thread that got the ball rolling. It started a bit slow, but in a short time the contenders started rolling in. I remember going for strawberries with my girlfriend. It took about two hours and when I returned it was the only active thread on the board.
The discussion soon went on to the general rules and the choice of team. The main factor for choosing Leigh RMI for the first challenge was the fact that it was the only way to get iajafer to join.

The First Installment was started on the 5th of July at around 1 pm, and the challenge was set to start on the same day at 3 pm. That meant it was all started and organized in less than 24 hours.

Bedford Bulldog volunteered to be in charge of the point system and the general scores, of which this is an example.
I was in charge or rather put myself in charge(Istill blame you Craig) of making a website, however, lots of people were very helpful in that area(no not you Craig)

The challenges lasted 2 months. They were intended to be an ongoing thing, but several reasons were behind their downfall, this was the thread that finished them off.

donald

What went wrong and what should have been different?

The fact is that a number of things went wrong, one of my main concerns is still the speed at which it was all organized. We thought we would be able to iron out any difficulties as we went along, but as soon as a precedence was set it became near impossible to set it right.

People were accused of cheating and some may even have cheated. That is how competitions work. These accusations dampened the mood of the entire forum for a while and is something I would hate to see again. Then there is the simple fact that competing against each other goes against the very ethos of LLM. No Bragging, it says in the header and as I see it, some level of bragging about your victories are simply a part of being human. Especially when you've got someone to flaunt it to, It has to be said though that the winners behaved very well after their victories.

Some people found the point system a tad too complex, actually I'm not sure anyone else than BB figured out how to calculate it, so either he kept somethings for himself or he's just a hell of a lot smarter than the rest of us.

My conclusion is that this could have worked. With a bit of thought. I remember iajafer asking if it wouldn't be better to just say that the one who finished in the best overall position won. That would have simplified the issues some people had with the point system.

As for the competitiveness, if someone decides to make a challenge my suggestion would be that there is no winner, but instead a :eek: shared update thread, mush like it's being done with the online game.

For now this is my 2p's worth. In hope this generates a better discussion than the pish I posted yesterday, but I guess we'll haqve to see about that.

LFCfan

I gave up because it wasn't a careerist game. I prefer a careerist game with as many leagues loaded as I can have running.

It was too short-term with no real interest in it for me. The club was chosen, rather than my semi-random choosing and I didn't like the idea of competing in something I know I can't win.

B.A. Baracus

At the risk of having my head bitten off (which is guaranteed at the moment), I quite liked the challenge (although i only managed one season with Leigh).

You do have to be careful though about how often you do it and how.

The only thing that i will say is that it's not entirely LLM, because of the way that such a challenge has to be approached. As a harmless bit of a laugh though, i saw no problems with it.

Now i'm going to sit here while everybody justifies why it was wrong bringing up the subject of ethics etc. which we've all heard before blah, blah, blah and all the rest of it. :p

If you hadn't guessed - i'm in a cynical mood today, especially with this forum.

donald

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LFCfan:
I gave up because it wasn't a careerist game. I prefer a careerist game with as many leagues loaded as I can have running.

It was too short-term with no real interest in it for me. The club was chosen, rather than my semi-random choosing and I didn't like the idea of competing in something I know I can't win.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I think that if anybody wants to do a challenge they should set it up in a small group, choose the team amongst themselves and keep it going for as long as they wish to.

The idea of a forum spanning challenge is as far as I see it dead, because it's too competitive and doesn't allow people to experience the same progress thay experience in thair other games.

However, if smaller groups desided to do one for themselves and stick to that game, then they could start a shared update thread, and thus maybe lowering the number of update threads in the forum.

Wortley

So my 2p's worth...

I enjoyed the challenges - they actually forced me to break out of the rather England-centric version of the game I'd been playing previously. I also enjoyed pitting my wits against fellow Llamas, however badly I did.

As for not being true LLM, I agree, but then nor was it CM-Online or CMS, it was a bástard version of all of the above. But it was played in good spirit (on the whole) and created a bit of interest on the forum when there was little happening.

As for bragging - the update threads were all well behaved, with basic fact stating rather than "woo, look at me, I'm brilliant", and any "bragging" tended to be with tongue firmly in cheek. It is only natural that we want to share the successes we have (maybe one day you'll understand LFCFan ), as well as the failures.

So they were fun, but limited to a short sharp blast, rather than the many seasons a true LLM game takes

W

LFCfan

I am innately a very competetive person. Admittedly, my CM record does not show this, but I am outstanding in my record of failiures before I managed to settle in at a club.

Seeing others doing a lot better than me left me feeling frustrated. I also had to approach the game in a different way which didn't feel right to me, so I stopped.

Glasswalker

Crikey. This thread has brought up a lot of memories.

I think the way it was done in hindsight was perhaps not the best idea. But perhaps once CM4 has been out for a few months there could be little challenges but without the points. A few people starting with the same clubs can compare their fortunes and more likely misfortunes.

iajafer

As I said at the time:
1) Challenges, by their very nature, go against LLM as I see it. LLM's never been about "I'm better than you" or "Let's see who can get promoted first". It's about doing your best in adverse conditions.

That's the crux of the matter. It ain't LLM. Never will be. As soon as competition's introduced guys want to do their best, at any cost. Which brings us to:

2) It saddened me to see guys' reputations being called into question, or the fact that guys' reputations may be questionable.

Sad, but true. Some guys are just better players than others, but those guys get lumped along with the "dubious" ones when it comes to discussions on how well someone did. No Competitions + no accusations, 'cos if you cheat on your own game you're cheating yourself - not everyone else.

3) Usually it takes me around 22 hours to complete a season. I completed the 5 seasons of the San Marino challenge in 2.5 days - around 12 hours per season - so there was a 10 hour disparity per season in committment.

Big issue for me. I like to devote my entire attention to bringing a Team along.

4) I paid absolutely no attention to youth signings, signing only guys who were going to do the job there and then.

As above. Youth players are hugely important to my game.

5) I miss the big games, starting off with a Club and having the choice whether to move, stay, or whatever, and seeing my youth findings develop into great players in a 30-odd season game.

...and that's it in a nutshell. A game doesn't come to life until you've played 20-odd seasons.

These be my reasons, and reasons why they don't work. Sad, but true

Here's looking forward to the first CM4 Challenge

Craig0

"I am taking up rekwobs crusade to start a new topic every day"

I suggest you don't. at the time rek was doing this he was brinign up questions that had never been asked before. It was nice and original. That was then and this is now, what is there to discuss now? i can see that ending in tears.

Moving on...

The thing that crushed this for me was the points system which i said at the time was a very complex and probably a tad over the top (no offence intended BB). For me it just spoilt it all. We should have gone for the "5 seasons whoever is highest wins". Whether it was brought up but what if two were in the premiership i hear you cry? Well they could have shared the title of LLaMa of the month or it could have been the person highest up the ladder at the end of season 5.

For me that was the crushing part, and the lack of trust which i must admit, i was heavily involved in.

Are they a good idea for the future? Yes, i do think they are. against LLM they may be but it does bring the community together, usually.

Well, that's what i have to say on the matter and why is the :eek: broke?