Elie

The setup: Simply put I took my Lower League into an away match where I had clear squad superiority and a base away RoT tactic that had been working just fine and messed around with simming the same game over and over changing only the various pre and halftime talks to get a sense of what would happen.

My sense is that these talks are linked (in some way) and have a significant influence on the game (yeah, "d'uh" says 90% of the forum).

A couple of examples: If I "expect to win" and and doing anything other than winning, saying anything other than "dissapointment" or "anger" (or "sympathize" only if tied and playing well) results in a blowout. Within that subset only "anger" resulted in a comeback victory.

If on the other hand I "think we can win", "dissapointment" and "anger" result in resounding defeat (regardless of the halftime score) while "pleased" worked even when behind ... and 2 times I was down 1-0, said I was "thrilled" and won both games going away (3-1 and 4-1 respectively). "sympathize" didn't work so well in this instance ... but it didn't get me blown out like anger and dissapointment.

"wish luck" seemed to be the biggest wildcard as I saw no relation with that to first half performence whatsoever, BUT at halftime only the extremes (thrilled/anger) resulted in any noticable change in performence.

"No Pressure" usually had me tied at half, and when followed with "we only need one more goal" always had me winning. In general "no pressure" was golden, winning me 9 of 10 matches regardless of what I said at half (only loss was no pressure, followed by losing, follwed by dissapointment ... though in fairness I did not try out anger when losing with no pressure)

Now OF COURSE, all of this is tied to my paricular squad makeup, (fairly determined for my dies) the game situation (road game, weak opponent) and of course I was not calling specific players out either way, nor was I even changing my tactics to the game situation (ie, when winning wasn't going super defense and I was scored on late a couple of time, I am sure to the 424). So ... I am positive that basically these results are unrepeatable unless you actually had my team (with its attendent moral issues) in that situation. Heck, we even know that your team eventually "tunes you out" if you say the same thing over and over again, so perhaps no pressure was working so well for me because I almost never say that to my sqaud.

Still, the interesting point is that I got all of these various results with my tactics remaining static from game to game - situation to situation. Its significant that I basically couldn't loose the game if I said a certain thing before the game and the appropriate thing at halftime. Just for kicks, my 10th "no pressure" game was with the 442 defensive that comes with the game, and I won that one easily.

So ... my question ... has anybody really messed around with the talks while keeping the tactics static? On the one hand there are too many permuttaions to really definitively spell out how to talk to your team, espeicially with the idea that the pre and half time talks are somehow linked. On the other hand, how many permutations do you have to go through before you get to a RoT mentality? It seems to me that the reason some tacitcs *work* for some people by not for others could have as much to do with what you are saying to your team as anything else. Is it possible to come up with some general rules, like "don't be angry with your team after your told them there was no pressure regardless of the score"?

This all comes to a head to me when looking at the various problems many people (including me) are having with holding late leads. As I've said, without switching my tactics at all, there were many late leads I held onto seeminlgy just by saying the right things at half time (sometimes before I even had the lead). There were other times when I caved at the end ... I never got around to trying "just go out an have fun" when I took a multiple goal lead into the half, maybe if I had said that (against a clearly inferior opponent that I was dominating) that would have linked up with my *decision* not to switch to a more defensive style and I wouldn't have given it up at all? Maybe it would have been disastorous, but it would have had some effect.

I'd just like to understand that effect more.

Hank Scorpio

Excellent, I am really pleased that someone has at last discussed this as I believe this has more of an effect on match day then the tactics themselves.

I've tested some of your examples as Liverpool:

1st Game, at home to Reading, told me team to relax and not worry. I was 3-0 up inside 30 minuites. At half time I told me team I was thrilled and ended up winning 4-0.

2nd Game, away to Sporting in Champions League. Sporting needed to beat me to qualify and therefore put me out in the process, so again I stuck with telling the side to relax. At half time we went in at 1-1, so I told the side to go out and get a goal for the win they deserve. It worked instantly, as I went 2-1 up right after kick off and held on until the 92nd Min when sporting made it 2-2, but I was happy as it still meant I qualified.

In the third game I was away to Middlesborough who are high flying in the table. I thought id try telling the team that they can win this and I battered the goal but couldnt score any of the clear cut oppertunities and found myself going in 1-0 down after they scored from their only chance. *on a side note its worth mentioning that the commentary actually said that middlesborough deserved their lead!?!* So half time, I said I was thrilled which worked a treat - My team pulled it around and walked away 2-1 victors, and should have been 3-1 although the ball was on the line of the goal when the ref blew up for half time.

So I think you are onto something... :thup:

charker

Don't forget, the mentality of your players also determines the effectiveness of your team-talks.

Nervous mentally-weak players might respond to a "no pressure" team-talk but your mentally-strong determined characters may under-perform as they "ease up".

Hank Scorpio

I think a guide might be a good idea - i.e. what to use in different situations

Spinza

I normally use the following system...

Before a game i will only use one of two, either;

We can win - Only if the i am favourites in the media.
Good Luck - If the opposition are expected to win

At half time;
0-0,1-0(winning)or leading by a goal - If playing well encourage, one more goal, etc.
If leading by 2-3 goals pleased and thrilled if 4+ lead.
0-0,1-0(losing) - Disappointed, want more, etc.
2+ goals down - unless playing well then angry

This will not work for everyone but i find for me it has worked really well. I was 2-0 down away to Man City and won 3-2 after i got angry at half time, although i did change team instructions too.

does anyone else try a similar approach or just how you feel on match day.

awhec

I always wish my players luck before the game and after a few games, a few players like Eboue and Rosicky have team talk reports like 'seemed demotivated', thus I was thinking, maybe in future matches I would give them individual talks according to their personality.

I think player persona plays a role to for teamtalks. Anyone think so?

Spinza

For sure players morale plays a big part in team talks. It i have a player lower than okay on morale i will give them a personal team talk other than that it keep it on general.

Also i will give an individual player a team talk at half time if he was been outstanding or very poor eg. Team all 7's and he has a 5 or 9, in general 2 above the average.

billgrant88

I've never used "No Pressure" in a match but I tried it in my last two games and it's worked wonders. Beat Chelsea 1-0 (93rd minute, but had a penalty miss too) and demolished top of the table Newcastle away 4-1.

Smac

As far as I'm aware, SI have said as much. See the hints file where it mentions that certain players react to certain kinds of comment: "Use the notes system to keep track...." etc..

Spinza: Thats about what I did for FM2006, though it seems to work decently for '07 as well. The only difference is that I say: 'Expect a win' if clear favorites, and 'Good Luck' if its even or tilted against me. For long odds against I say "Who cares?" and try to get them to enjoy themselves (no pressure).

However, I gladly agree with the OP (Elie) that it should be, seems to be, and must be more useful to come up with two more complex patterns:

1. How do team talks work together (like Spinza's and my methods, but for 07 its a little different).

2. What is the ultimate combination for individual player comments?

Relevant questions on #2 seem to me to be:

A. Does it matter how many individually customized comments you make? IE, if you talk to each player individually, does this dilute the effect?

B. How do your manager stats effect the team talk?

C. What is the general pattern for handling the various player personality types and hidden attributes? IE Professional players may perform with certain wording, unprofessional a different wording.... Ambition, Sportsmanship, others all play a role. What is the ultimate formala here?

D. How much does variety play a role in team talks? What is the curve like for effect wearing off through time? EG: If you use the same motivation they listen less and less, but what's ideal here?

This is actually one aspect of the tactical/teamtalk system that I enjoy the ambiguity of. If SI were to tell us how the black box worked it would be boring to use a formula. However, if we discover it ourselves, it will be like gold.

Cleon, you almost have to place a **Spoiler** title on this thread already. If Elie or someone else does even more rigorous testing I wouldn't be surprised if this is fairly 'cracked'.

So far Elie, your results match my own. I'd just encourage you to test even more. I've considered using an edited database to do testing, though so far I can't be bothered with it. I'd use perfectly average players vs. perfectly average players, paying particular note to try out various player personalities. This would be too easy though I think.

"I wish you luck on your next test" and "No Pressure"!

benfica4alex

I agree but can you imagine doing this for every single player for every single match? it would take you ages but of course if you have time then i imagine that it will be well worth it