[Alex-sKIp_E]

To be honest, after my last post, I cbf even bothering with half of the guys here (including a certain moderator)...

But ill say my piece anyway, which, in the interests of free speech, I expect will be deleted....

Ok, I posted how I was playing the game. I HAD read the rules regarding LLM, but to be honest, I think I took part of it too literally..."The reason for this is that playing LLM is about playing the game as realistically as possible."

The way I played the game, NO players were edited (meaing the all important impartiality was kept). All that was done, was players were given "future transfers" (I did EPL, 3 nation wide leagues, Serie A, Serie B, La Liga and Spanish 2nd Div). I also changed player condition on match day, so that the season finished with the correct promotion, relegation and Euro qualfiers...It took me a LONG time...

Once the season was OVER, i began playing myself, and with a lower league side. The games database, is JUST as realistic as it ever has been, and really, it is just in the position that a CM03-04 released at the time I did it, would have been in.

Now the next point: "Editors (The Spawn of Satan) are banned for two reasons. They can corrupt your game and they allow you to cheat, whether it’s producing super-players or swapping Teams from one Division or Nation to another."
Two reasons? Neither of these reasons effect my game..Well the 2nd does, but it actually contradicts the first point, about realism.

No super players were produced, I have confidence that Im not one of those people who dont know how to backup a file (therefore dont get corruption), I dont create super players (im after realism), and swapping the nation of a team is ridiculous.

To be completely honest, I dont think LLM is about having a "realistic game" at all...Its about conforming to a style...Keeping things static..Not wanting to think outside the square...Playing CM, SHOULDNT be about playing in a particular style. It should be about playing the most REALISTIC management game possible. Im sure that this is actually what LLM is all about aswell, and for that reason, Id rather play my game, than confirm to the rules of LLM, just to fit into this elitest group. You people are blinded by your own pride, and by the idea that this is the only way to get a real game. Id like to see someone point out exactly why my style of play is any less realistic than LLM (but I dont think anyone will be given the chance, well not in this thread atleast)

Now, on another note, I really appreciated LFCfan and CM Wizard's replies. They told me where I stood, and that was it. They didnt have to delve into personal insults, just to convince themself that there was only one way to play Championship Manager realistically. However I would have liked CM Wizard to go into more detaul as to why using the editor (in the fashion I have) "takes away from the LLM experience..."

I think the people here need to ask themself this:
Why do you do LLM?
If it's for the sake of realism, than maybe you should open up and realise that there is more than one way to have a realistic game. Or is it, so that you can be part of the "LLM community"...If its the 2nd option, OR if you've disillusioned yourself to believe its the first, when it is the 2nd, then I really feel sorry for you. Go outside, get some air, realise that following a set of rules and guidelines, doesnt make CM any more realistic.

I await my reply, but I expect to simply be silenced...

[The Taxman]

That is the most self-centred, ego-driven crap I've read on this forum. Use your editor, play your game, nobody cares, nor will anyone try and stop you. If you don't want to abide by the LLM rules then what are you doing in here?

[Alex-sKIp_E]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Taxman:
That is the most self-centred, ego-driven crap I've read on this forum. Use your editor, play your game, nobody cares, nor will anyone try and stop you. If you don't want to abide by the LLM rules then what are you doing in here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hehe
funny, you failed to reply directly to any point I made, or point out what exactly amde it "self-centred", "ego-driven" etc...

If you had any idea about WHAT I did, you'd realise that Im not using my editor now that Im playing.

Self-centred? hmm I think you've missed the whole point. I simply told of how I was playing the game, and how playing that way was still as realistic (and therefore works with the whole concept of LLM)...I never spoke of myself, and never built myself up.

I can see that you're one of those guys, that doesnt want to tell himself, that maybe the whole LLM concept contradicts itself...

I like this part of the summary of LLM guidelines in this forum the best:

"It is just a game, though. It’s counter-productive to get bogged down by rules..."

Funny, if the way I play the game works, isnt helping me in anyway, is realistic, then why are we being "bogged down by rules"...

You ask why I'm here? Because I enjoy playing the game in the most realistic fashion possible. I like taking over a lower league club, and building it up, along with my reputation, IF Im good enough.

The LLM concept is a good one. Im not doubting that. What I am doubting is the over the top policing of the rules.

I realise that LLM ISNT just taking a LL club to the top, and thats not what Im doing...

What Im questioning is, if LLM ISNT playing the game as realistically as possible, than what is it...

I find it ironic, that SI have things right when you want them to, but not when you dont...Just change things to suit yourself do you? It's just another contradiction...You can send scouts to only boardering nations, yet the game allows you to send them anywhere...You cant use some of the search functions that SI allow...Yet you have to stick to the original SI database...Simply because "it doesnt benefit them to be biased"....

Im still awaiting a TRUE reply to my post, what Taxman said was purely dribble. He had nothing to back up what he was saying, so simply came out with a sentence attacking my post in the most general way possible, but without giving any reason. Im assuming I wont get a reply, simply because I dont think that there is one to give, however the reason given will be something along the line of "this form isnt to question the ethics of LLM", or maybe "if you're not going to play LLM the correct way, than what are you doing at the forum", throwing more insults, and just deleteing/closing the thread is always another option...

Believe it or not, I know what its like to be a moderator. I was a long time supermod at the whole of the Soccer Gaming forums (and Im guessing that the SG forums have close to the -if not the same - number of members of these forums)...But one thing I never stood for when I was a moderator, was trying to silence people. If a question is asked, and a valid question in that, then it is just polite to answer it...And I believe the only reason that this forum has a rule to get around that, is because of fear that their really is no true answer.

[The Taxman]

Why would you bother going on what now is a 2nd long winded rant questioning the rules of LLM? The rules are there, either follow them or don't.

By self-centred, ego-driven I meant that by looking at your comments, telling LLaMas to "ask themselves this", telling them they are "disillusioned", asserting that you know better than the LLM rules, and saying you don't think I will reply to your post...don't you think any of this could come off as self-centred or egotistical?

About your using of an editor, unless you did every single transfer, every single coaching change etc it wouldn't be "realistic". Infact when you click continue the first time the game stops being totally realistic. Brisbane Strikers' manager resigned and now they don't have one IRL, did you make this change? Did you change the board members for Chelsea, Leeds, what about all the transfer money that is available for each side, SI don't have definitive figures on that so they must be making educated guesses...how realistic is that?

What happens in the "CM world" inside each saved game is different to real life. We are not playing real life, if you understand what I mean.

[jraldous]

Alex, no-one doubts that you played honestly and with good intents. BUT it is the thin edge of the wedge... if you let people use editors to do that, then the next person will push it further, and the next further and so on. So it is easiest to draw the line at no use and end the arguments.

Similar reasons for why player naming is not allowed, even though naming famous players, or crap players won't affect most people's games. Some idiot will always try to use it as an excuse to push the limits.

[Alex-sKIp_E]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Taxman:
Why would you bother going on what now is a 2nd long winded rant questioning the rules of LLM? The rules are there, either follow them or don't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I realise that, but what Im saying isnt that the rules shouldnt be followed, just that this isnt neccesarily the best way, and the treatment I recieved in the other thread, definitely wasnt fair. I posed a fair question, and some of the replies werent warranted.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
By self-centred, ego-driven I meant that by looking at your comments, telling LLaMas to "ask themselves this", telling them they are "disillusioned", asserting that you know better than the LLM rules, and saying you don't think I will reply to your post...don't you think any of this could come off as self-centred or egotistical?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok thanks for clearing that up. Im not neccesarily saying that I know "better" than the LLM rules. Im just saying that the rules dont neccesarily make for a more realistic game than may otherwise be had, therefore contradicting the whole concept.
But I can see why some rules need to be in place. I think setting concrete guidelines is a good thing, it comes back to the whole give an inch, take a mile thing. So yeah, whilst not totally agreeing with the concept, I can see why rules need to be inplace...Just not enforced so heavily perhaps.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
About your using of an editor, unless you did every single transfer, every single coaching change etc it wouldn't be "realistic". Infact when you click continue the first time the game stops being totally realistic. Brisbane Strikers' manager resigned and now they don't have one IRL, did you make this change? Did you change the board members for Chelsea, Leeds, what about all the transfer money that is available for each side, SI don't have definitive figures on that so they must be making educated guesses...how realistic is that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I made EVERY transfer change that I could find, but as I said, I made it as a future transfer, I dont like the idea of playing the first season without those changes.

Of course as soon as I click
"continue" everything changes, but this happens with any game. The point is, my game was basically as CM would be, if it was released just before this season. After that anything can happen. Basically its just a year ahead of what it would otherwise be.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What happens in the "CM world" inside each saved game is different to real life. We are not playing real life, if you understand what I mean.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, again, I agree. However, I really couldnt bring myself to play the season that hsa just finished, and I know a heap of guys that agree with me on that one. So thats why I took the time (and it has taken time-since EP5 was released its all that Ive done in CM, and ive only been PLAYING this game now for the last 5 days to a week) to make the changes.

So yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're missing my point. I dont want things to mimic real life. I just like things to be as upto date as possible, at the start of the season that I start in...and I like this to be the current season.

Im glad you replied again tho, and Im happy with your reply. I hope that you can see things more from my perspective, and are happy with mine too

[shawng1]

Alex,

If you don't want to play LLM, fine. No one MAKES you play according to these rules. But any community has the right to make reasonable rules to define how it operates. There's nothing inherently unreasonable about saying we are not in favor of using editors. As for swapping a team's nation, I can see honestly how that can unbalance the game. A conference side in England could compete in the top division of Wales or Ireland. Now if it was to replicate something that happened in reality, I'd be personally less wroth. But I still wouldn't agree with it.

[Taipan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
cbf even bothering with half of the guys here (including a certain moderator)...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that is me.. ..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
did EPL, 3 nation wide leagues, Serie A, Serie B, La Liga and Spanish 2nd Div
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Using editors opens up a can of worms bigger than Uluru and editing the game upsets the equilibrium of the data base from a purist point of view. Be it one player or 1000, you have edited the data base.

So now you have "fixed" these leagues. What about the rest?. So some are done and others not. Hardly "realistic" is it? We accept that SI have dome the best job they can, and thier data base is the one which should be followed, not some half-baked attempt at editing a few players from a few leagues.

In fairness you have proberly done a good job in your mind, but to try and make us accept this as "ok" is just being plain bombastic. You bought the game. You play it how you want, but DON'T come in here and tell us how this forum should operate. The guidelines/rules of this forum have been in place well before you joined and to come in here and expect us to bow to your opinions is being very self-centred. LLM is so much more than playing a LL side, and this is something you have failed to grasp.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Id rather play my game, than confirm to the rules of LLM, just to fit into this elitest group.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine! But saying "I am right and you are wrong" is just a quick way of getting yourself offside with all and sundry.

Playing the game how you like and enjoy doing it will never be denied to you, just don't post about it here.

[Alex-sKIp_E]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jraldous:
Alex, no-one doubts that you played honestly and with good intents. BUT it is the thin edge of the wedge... if you let people use editors to do that, then the next person will push it further, and the next further and so on. So it is easiest to draw the line at no use and end the arguments.

Similar reasons for why player naming is not allowed, even though naming famous players, or crap players won't affect most people's games. Some idiot will always try to use it as an excuse to push the limits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, thanks for your reply.

This is the type of response that I like, and I think its much more productive than some other responses Ive recieved previously...

As I said in the post above, I can definitely see what you're speaking about (I mentioned giving an inch, taking a mile above), I think they often call it the "slippery slide" effect..

An analogy is (in Australia) where you can drink when you're 18. The guy goes into the bar and says "Can I have a beer, im 18 tomorrow"..The barman says ok, whats one day anyway...The next guy goes in.."Can I have a beer, you gave him one, and Im his age tomorrow"...etc

However, as much as I can see where you're coming from, I still dont like the way the issue was delt with. CM Wizards reply was a good one tho. But there were a fair few replies that werent so nice...I should have been told that "no, it cant count as LLM, simply because the guidelines have to be strongly enforced, because people keep pushing further and further.." or something along those lines.

I will continue to play my game, because my conscience is definitely clear...And I may continue to post around here (hopefully there wont be as much trouble with what I post in the future ), as now that the game has "started" (ie. Ive chosen a team), Im sticking directly to the rules of LLM... I hope that you guys, knowing that I havent cheated (altho maybe I havent stuck to the strict guidelines of LLM, the goal/outcome is the same), or advantaged myself in anyway...

Hope that clears the water a bit.

[Taipan]

Alex-sKIp_E, you do seem like a nice fella and from your above post accept some of the points made by other LLaMa's. That is the sign of a person willing to accept reason and comprise.

And I don't retract any of the things I said above. :cool: