retired_aries

Heh, I don't think my "computer" players respond in any way whatsoever to the way I scream at the monitor when they're not performing.

retired_ladylimdiddy

Agree completely with this, good post.

retired_maddy_m_liza

Mixt of: Players, Tactics, Morale, Jadedness, Team Talks, Weather, Luck.

There's going to be other minor things though, like the teams captain choice, pitch size etc.

retired_roshawnda82

Mitja: I completely take your point about spirit. Cars and other machines are essentially precise scientific objects without most of the randomness of humans be it spirit on the day or human error.

Heath: I agree that in Cloughie's era many things were different namely a lot less focus on training, nutrition and probably tactics too, and this amongst other things probably contributed in the end to Cloughie's managerial demise.

That said, I simply cannot agree with you that "tactics play a bigger part than players". At most all managers do tactically is (a) specify a formation (b)specify which position the players are to play in (c) give them some basic individual instructions (d) sort set pieces (e)specify a general style of play for the team i.e possession, counter, all out frantic attack, long ball etc and (f) make any comments as relevant regarding the opposition from scout reports. At the other end of the scale, the Fergusons and Wenger's of this world probably just say "pass the ball, relax and express yourselves". Ultimately therefore, in real life (as opposed to FM) there is a limit to what managers can do once the players walk onto the pitch. The corollary of this is that there is a limit to what tactics can do vs players. Its safe to say that a team of world class players with poor management and tactics wouldn't reach their potential of winning the league. But they'd do a darn sight better than a team of non-leagers managed by the tactical super-computer that is Jose Mourinho.

Gunnerfan: completely agree with you that when a small team beats a lesser team tactics are the main reason along with the will to will and often a bit of luck. However: firstly, this is a more excpetional circumstance, in real life the bigger team wins more often than not, and this is not down to tactics, it is down to players. Secondly, even where the small team beats the big team and the small team's tactics are the reason, it's at a much simpler level than in FM i.e. the small team closes down until they are panting like a geriatric asthmatic and the big team gets frustrated and perhaps the best players of the big team are also marked out of the game, and perhaps the little team makes the most of set-pieces on the day. These are much simply concepts than the myriad of sliders and instructions in FM, and recognises that other than those simple (obvious in my mind) tactics, once the teams take to the field, its the quality of the players that will be the deciding factor.

I completely agree with you about the repetitiveness of the coach/manager interaction, but in fairness to SI, as you say, its very difficult to replicated such inherently humane concepts through computer code.

retired_kathryn0628

I'd put success down to 70% tactical approach, 10% player talent, and 20% player form, morale, etc. Of course, the players form is highly affected by their talent, so I guess itd be more like 70% tactical, 30% players.

Without the right tactic, you CANNOT win the league... but without the right talent, you can.

retired_roshawnda82

Are you talking about FM or real life or both? If you're talking about FM: yes you probably can. This is my point, that shouldnt be the case because this would not be the case in real life. Which team in for example the short history of the Premiership has won it with poor players but the right tactic? No-one..... Even when Blackburn won it they had top players bought with the late chairmans's money. In fact, when Newcastle almost won it, they had the absolute opposite of poor players and good tactic - they had quality players and arguably no tactic, well, other than try and outscore the opposition.

retired_huggabunch

I agree with Cloughy's statement. FM has become too tactics orientated. If you even change a single setting or a player instruction it can send your team into freefall against a poor side even if you have a team packed full of international players. It has you afraid to touch anything. I've found that FM has become much less something that is enjoyable at times. But almost a mind-puzzle where you must locate the EXACT formation and settings required to unlock the potential of your team. If I wanted a head**** i'd play Sudoku. This whole process becomes tiresome at times. I have been playing these type of games since CM2 and never more than FM08 have I found the whole tactical preocupation on this game a chore rather than an enjoyable part of the game. Yes, I enjoy finding and trying tactics that work TO A POINT. But when you are on an endless search to make things work and have tried formation after formation with nothing that's even adequate it becomes a real pain. I don't expect everything to come easy. But too much importance have been applied to tactics in terms of individual results on FM08 in my opinion. I prefer the older games to be honest. I don't believe that many of the alleged "improvements" for the 08 edition have improved the game at all. Quite the opposite in truth.

retired_kathryn0628

Im talking about FM. Obviously, tactics arent a big deal in real life. Sure, they might help you play better... but Arsenal won't lose to Derby often, no matter how they play. Sure it can happen, but it won't be because their tactic was superior.

As much i'd like to blame FM for emphasising tactics... what kind of game would it be if ALL you did was buy the best players?

retired_aries

The simlicity of purely buying the best players is what most footy management games has been based upon for many years, and still is, with the exception of the FM series.

If played most footy management sims out there and always found it silly that you could play unrealistic, outrageous tactics, but because you have the best players it does'nt matter.

For a club like Man Utd IRL, there has to be a subtle mix of tactical awareness, whilst also freedom to express themselves by players such as Rooney and Ronaldo. Not all teams have the luxury of players like this and clearly need to rely upon a tactical gameplan to garner the success they enjoy.

retired_aries

Leading on from this, just follow the England team's selections when they get underway with Fabio Capello at the helm.

I'm convinced that you will see a prime example of tactics taking presidence over indivudual players.

I praise Capello for taking on the poisoned chalice of a job. I doubt England will play the most flair orientated football under Capello, but he will clearly select players on the basis they can work within his tactics rather than their stature or reputation.

Either way, he's in for criticism, but his aim will be results orientated.