retired_armer

This is getting more and more clear to me. Why is it that now that we have the opportunity to see the whole game, where we actually see what is wrong with the tactic, there is no chance to do major adjustments. I feel that the tactics schemes are back at the system we had at CM1. I really miss the with\without ball, escpecially when I see the headless decisions from the players. Of course there are some tactics out there that will help me win every game, but what is the big deal about doing so? When I put up a tactic I put it the way I feel it would have worked out in real life. When it doesn't work in the FM engine, I really can't make myself adjust to something I find unrealistic in real life, by using one of your supertactics. It's like when you could play with 2 DC and the rest on top on CM2.. It is just too stupid...

My point is: Get the with\without ball back. So you can make adjustments when you can SEE that the players are going into the wrong positions.

retired_infinite_dreams

I was also a fan of the with\without ball instructios in the ols CM series where you could tell a player how to position himself when the ball was in a certain area of the pitch and depending of the team had control of it or not.

But i think the systems that is used right now is much more realistic. IRL a manager dosent exactly tell a player where to position himself if the oppositon has the ball on the left touchline at the middle of the pitch. Or if the ball is to the left of the area. IRL a manager rather givs instructions to the team like, how much the defensive line should push up of if they should position themself deep. And what type of passing style the team should play. On individual level a manager tells the player how offensive or defensive he should be (mentality in the game) and how much the should be alowed to use his own initiative (creative freedom). And when it comes to defending a manager tells the player how how i should apply pressure on the opponent when he has the ball (closing down in the game). So i thing this system is more of a reflection of reality then the old one, a manager gives the team and players instructions on how to behave in differnt situations rather then exactly telling them where to position themself in regard to where the ball is on the pitch and if the team has it or the opposition has it. Then its up to the player to use their intelligence to solve the situation in the best way they can.

Well its just what i think.

retired_krissyski

I have to agree with zenith. At the time, I also liked WIB/WOB because it gave the manager the kind of control that coaches all crave...but never really have. And for several iterations after WIB/WOB disappeared, I mourned its loss, but mostly because I felt the development of the tactical side was not keeping up with other aspects of the game.

Now, though, that's changed. I think there is still room for improvement, especially in making tactical instructions more clear. For example, a lot of space in the TT&F thread is devoted to overlapping and how you get your backs to do that. Well, IRL, you just tell your left back, "Push up and overlap" and you tell your left mid "watch for Fred overlapping, and if he does, drop and cover." It should be that easy in FM. Then again, what is easy to explain to a thinking (hopefully) humanoid gets rather dicey when trying to break it down into instructions for a CPU.

In any event, SI has made it clear that WIB/WOB has gone the way of the dinosaur, so I doubt we'll be seeing it anywhere but vintage editions of CM.

retired_rebebeccag

In actual fact they do.

If you ever get the chance to watch a the youth for any really top team train for any period of time, you'll see it.

In the middle of a bounce game the whistle will go and a coach will come storming onto the pitch and start questioning the position a player has taken up. as often as not said player will then be grabbed and physically man-handled into the position the coach thinks he should be in.

After games players will be shown videos of the game, and the video will be paused constantly to point out poor positioning and the players reminded of the positions they should have adopted.

This goes on and on, so that in a given period of time the Wibble-Wobble effect actually takes effect.

I don't think we'll ever see Wibble-Wobble back, but in my mind that's a loss of realism not a gain.

retired_krissyski

In actual fact they do.

If you ever get the chance to watch a the youth for any really top team train for any period of time, you'll see it.

In the middle of a bounce game the whistle will go and a coach will come storming onto the pitch and start questioning the position a player has taken up. as often as not said player will then be grabbed and physically man-handled into the position the coach thinks he should be in.

After games players will be shown videos of the game, and the video will be paused constantly to point out poor positioning and the players reminded of the positions they should have adopted.

This goes on and on, so that in a given period of time the Wibble-Wobble effect actually takes effect.

I don't think we'll ever see Wibble-Wobble back, but in my mind that's a loss of realism not a gain. </BLOCKQUOTE>

I coached youth soccer for ten years at a variety of levels, and I saw programs that functioned this way. I never saw any that produced players of superior quality, and certainly none of professional calibre. Whatever success those teams had derived solely from the quality of talent that they acquired. They were recruiters, not teachers.

What's more, such an approach if tried on the professional level would be a dismal failure. Can you imagine Messr. Wenger telling Thierry Henry - or even Theo Walcott - that he must take X number of steps to receive the ball at just such a point, hold it for Y number of seconds before...well, you get the idea. It would be laughable. Besides, the beauty of the game is the fact that coaches have so little control once the match begins. This is in stark contrast to sports like American football, where virtually every step is scripted.

retired_infinite_dreams

In actual fact they do.

If you ever get the chance to watch a the youth for any really top team train for any period of time, you'll see it.

In the middle of a bounce game the whistle will go and a coach will come storming onto the pitch and start questioning the position a player has taken up. as often as not said player will then be grabbed and physically man-handled into the position the coach thinks he should be in.

After games players will be shown videos of the game, and the video will be paused constantly to point out poor positioning and the players reminded of the positions they should have adopted.

This goes on and on, so that in a given period of time the Wibble-Wobble effect actually takes effect.

I don't think we'll ever see Wibble-Wobble back, but in my mind that's a loss of realism not a gain. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i played football at high level (not a full time professional), and after i got injured and retiered i helped with coaching and training of the youth players (U 16) at the club.

And what i can tell you is that when the coaches talk to a player and give comments about his positioning during i training it isnt ment to learn the player to memorize exactly where he should position himself when the ball is in that certain position. Most often you tell the player what he has done wrong and how he should do it next time. Could be something like closing down earlier, or to follow the fullback that overlaps.

When you are talking about a coach grabbing a player and drag him to a certain position the meaning of it isnt that he should memorize that particular position and always be there. Its just that in this situation he should have done it in a different way. Its more about explaining how he should act in this particular situation, and why he should do it this way. All of this is ment to increase the players intelligence on the football pitch so he can decide how to act if a simillar situation occurs during a game.

And during a game all that a player can lean back against is his skill and intelligence, not a schema showing exactly where he should stand when we dont have the ball and where to run when we got the ball. Since there is opponents on the pitch also, its impossible to tell him exactly where to stand when the ball is down at the corner flag and the opponents has it for example.

What you are talking about isnt ment to let the player memorize the position he should be in. Its as i said training his intelligence. Think for it a minute, if you just narrow it down to the penalty area. There are several different situation that can occur, and to think that a player should be able to memorize them all is unreal. And if you then think about all the situations that can occur all over the pitch, with and without the ball its even more unrealistic.

So its a loss of realism having that kind of function in the game, not a gain.

retired_armer

Kristian - norwegian?
Seems like others here are not used to our way of playing the game (the game of football)..

retired_infinite_dreams

Well that can explain why you didnt qualify for the World Cup, it was just to hard for the players to memorize all the positions they should be in, in all the situations that can occur.

retired_rebebeccag

No not Norwegian.

British, hence the "man-handling"

retired_rebebeccag

As did I. I also did a mini-tour of several academies and training grounds with a view to moving on with my badges, but sadly work and family committments knocked that on the head.


No, I did not say that it was intended to get a player to memorise various positions on the pitch, but that is the effect. I actually did say that in my post.

The idea of repeated training of that kind is to build the players sub-concious. Of course there are players for whom that will never happen, and there are players who will follow it so rigidly they'll never adapt to in game requirements.

But the wibble-wobble style of control should have been built on to make it more like the realistic scenario I suggested and you explicitly said, rather than simply removing it from the game altogether. It's a fact that coaches do work with players on a more scenario-based than simply sliders.

What you give a player by thos training ground instructions, or the videos, is a basic position given the ball being in a certain area of the pitch, and given the possesion ebing with your team or the opposition. Then that's when your other instructions come into play. i.e. your suggestion on closing down more aggressively.

It's not about memorising, it's about shape-setting in a more detailed fashion to the way the game has gone.