retired_Cat1123

I understand where your coming from mate, but i still think you have me all wrong. All i want at the end of the day is something that works enough to keep me interested in playing the game and this does'nt.

Yes, i understand that my own frustrations can be seen in the way that i post, but that is because what myself and a lot of others are seeing is so blatant, that it's hard to believe that others simply cannot see it, especially those of you i consider extremely intelligent?.

Seriously, what would happen if i did actually prove beyond doubt that all my gripes with this game are completely true, would i be banned or would others actually be pleased that such things were brought to light?.

Is it wrong for me to want something better than we have right now?. I paid £25 for this game and have followed this series since the Amiga day's, do i not have a right to seek satisfaction?.

Would it be wrong of me to inform SI that i am currently looking for someone to independently look at the inner workings of this game to prove once and for all that i and many others have been correct after all?.

I simply feel robbed and yes angry too, as "to me" its obvious that a lot of what should have gone into this game has been sacrificed, whether it was to save money, time or just for the fact that SI thought they could get away with it?, that we will never know, but i'm convinced i will at some point be able to prove to everyone that i was right all along and that is'nt my ego talking, its the fact that we have been duped and shortchanged with FM07!.

retired_kellyk

If you can proof that the game is flawed in the way you assert and that it is a "utter failure" don't you think that you'll be heard.

My advice is not to go brow beating everyone that disagrees with you but to maybe accept that in the absence of absolute proof. There is no certainty that you or perhaps even I could be absolutely right.

I for one feel the opposite way you feel which is like two sides of a coin, so you can understand how I feel. If the roles were reversed, I'd probably do the same thing. I do want to help you but you need to take a step back and reassess the whole deal. I have to admit that I was frustrated at the game at the start, it was only in feb I think that the whole game came together for me, and it struck me like a bolt out of the blue how easy the game was.

There are times when howlers are committed by players and then when i look at their morale and if they are still superb, the shelling I give them regardless of their match rating almost always makes them turn around.

Incidentally if you took my tactics and used them "out of the box" they would not work because the team is sitting back and waiting to be attacked.

My advice go to my thread have a look, try the approach I advocate instead of trying to start a fire..if after all that you still can't get it right, i am in a position to get others to help.

Cheers

R

ps> apologies for going offthread....and who said we could have another "I'm so frustrated thread" ;-)

retired_cathy17

Half Time Orange,

Thanks for the reply. I understand that situation because many times in the past i've been in the same quagmire. I played the same game for 6 straight hours i think it was against Aston Villa vs my Man Utd. During that time, I was using what thought was my 'super-tactic': i've won several games without changing anything until i encountered this roadblock of a team Aston Villa. It puzzled me why they (Aston Villa) according to my scouts a team heavily favoured to lose against me was able to pull off a major upset. So what i did like you did was to change the tactics and the instructions. It got worse. However, i thought to myself there must be something wrong with what i was doing including the adjustments i made. I mean playing the game 20 times, with Rooney, Ronaldo, i would have at least won one game. But i didn't. Yes, that's am impossibility. But i didn't gave up until i knew what i was doing wrong.

One time i chanced upon Kristianhor's thread and there he theorized that combining wwfan's and cleon's theories, you could come up with 14 set of tactics emphasizing on staggered mentalities. In summary, he explained that the key to neutralizing your opponent is to COUNTER the way his team plays mentally. Thus, if the AI goes defensive, you select the tactic which was offensive and vice versa. I think this is exactly what the AI is trying to do given a set of tactics. So basically, what he is trying to say is that you can pick any formation you want, apply the staggered mentalities, adjust the instructions fitting the player, and pick one of the set of tactics you think would counter the AI, and during the game adjust when it's too defensive or too offensive. The key is to get a perfect counter against the opponent focusing mainly on the player's mentalities (for more in depth explanation, pls refer to kristianhor's thread).

Now i tested this theory using my unorthodox formation (4-1-3-2; 4 defenders, 1 DM, 3 AMC(no farrows, just behind the two strikers) which was previously unsuccessful with Aston Villa. Now, i picked a mentality setting which would counter Villa's team mentality and run the game. It's not an easy science. During the game I have to change into different mentalities until I've come upon a mentality setting which made my team play flowing football. Less fouls, my players always intercepts passes and switches to attacking football. I've found it even amazing that though counter-attack is not ticked, usually i score against the opposition on the counter.

The point is that I found what was wrong with my tactics and instructions and i can address it by making the necessary changes. If you lose there is something which you didn't get correctly and that reflects upon the scoreline.

Reading the threads in these forum greatly benefitted my FM experience( sounds like a youngster would say ). I found out that there's a way and method in using closing downs which i incorporated into my set tactics, forward runs, etc. Having knowledge of what you are adjusting in the team and individual instructions and how it plays out in the field of play will give you a better idea of it's flaws or shortcomings against a particular team. Each slider, each instruction affects more or less other instructions and ultimately how will your player play and adjusting it without knowing what it does affect not only the player but the team as a whole will which will be greatly disastrous.

Remember, that thought your tactics and instructions would work on one team, it doesn't necessarily follow that it would work on another team. You may note that the AI uses a multitude of tactics and it would be hard to design a specific tactic for a particular tactic of the AI (it uses even "unnamed" formations!) So it's understandable that one tactic which was effective in one match would not work on another match. So kristianhor's approach IMO is the most practical way of dealing with this situation. So after Aston Villa, I was able to go head to head against AI using this simple theory and win. I don't do 20 games anymore.

Regarding times when in a match you totally dominated the opposition and yet you lose by an own goal an purely ridiculous AI effort. S**t happens. As in real life. Take Bayern against Man Utd in the 1999 CL Final. AC Milan vs Liverpool CL Final. It happens. Now if the FM denies us that, it wouldn't be that fun, wouldn't it? Now, what if YOU the manager was able to pull off that O.G. or that ridiculous goal effort? What if suddenly, G. Neville, 90 mins in ET scored a long rage effort from 50 yards (or any situation for that matter)? Would you complain? Definitely no. Although you think that can't be controlled, SI incorporated it in the form of "enjoy playing big matches." Now obviously the higher the value, the higher the CHANCES the player would be able to make that last ditch effort, great save, surely the winning goal and what have you. If you think otherwise, if you think this is illogical, then when Man Utd won 7-something against Roma in the CL is illogical, that Carrick's goal is illogical, that Smithy's goal was illogical as he was plagued by injury most of the season and had only a few matches under his belt, that Arsenal's and Chelsea's habit of winning from behind is illogical and so on and so forth.

I think when one plays FM2007, he/she must not forget that he is a MANAGER, he manages the team from the tactics, training and everything else coz if you leave the big things to your ass man or staff, then you would have someone to blame other than you. You must prove that you're better than the real manager of that team. This game gives us that opportunity which we may never encounter in real life. Imagine, you could manage the likes of Ronaldo, Kaka, Ronaldinho, and whoever in an environment which appproximates the real game? Isnt' that good enough?

Like a manager, you must do your homework, analyze the opposition, instead of complaining that you just can't beat the opposition. If that's the case, then you are not worthy to manage that team. I don't see SAF complaining nor does Jose or Rafa. They admit defeat and acknowledging that the opponent got their tactics right. So should we. Although we ambition and expect that we win the league without dropping a point, it would be a difficult task. If you're up to the challenge, if you give your media marginalized team a fighting chance and get your tactics and instructions right and invest time on it, then maybe placing your media-tipped relegation candidate team among the top four is a reality. With this in mind, I look up to Reading last season, also porthsmouth, bolton. If you can't take an losing an odd game or two to an utter fluke in the chin, then you're not "professional" enough to be a manager. In any case, it's just a GAME. Nothing's at stake here. You won't be losing per week wages as a manager or the board and fans expectations has gotten in to you?

In fine, after reading the threads in this forum, i realized that the game gives you the tools to defeat the AI. That every match can be won. That despite the odds against you, you have a fighting chance. That despite the odds against the opposing team, they just might cause an upset against you. So be prepared.

That's what i learned in these threads and i'm deeply grateful those who generously shared their ideas to help others (kristianhor, cleon, rashidi, jep - cheers to you guys!)

retired_janae55

I am surprised you said that. Many people have said they can't figure out the game, and admitted they can't do well at this game. It's not a case of ego.

And assuming you're true and that the AI is very smart, it's funny then how SI is making people work so hard at this game to overcome an AI, when all everyone wants to do is have fun and not sit in front of the comp and keep tweaking tactics. It just takes the fun out of everything.

I don't believe the AI cheats, and I re-emphasize this. But I have to admit there's some baffling things that just happen which I can't control. Like how a player can do a backpass under no pressure which can only get intercepted by the opposing striker. It's not within my control. But overall, the thrill of beating the game is there, but still, the fun element has gone down for me.

retired_kellyk

Nope I was saying we are smarter than the AI..the AI plays using a very simple methodology, keep it simple and you should win

retired_e_fores

I refer to Hammer and Arteta specifically and respectfully:

You say you have had a lot of success on this game and are astute enouh tactically. I'm sure you are butit doesn't mea you get it right ALL the time (ie when you experience situations lke the OP's). This is isn't a situation you HAVE to deal with on FM (however good you may be) because it doesn't happen to everyone. When it does happen to me I personally tweak and change and sometimes get things right.

My current game with Milan is a good example of how things can be changed but alsoexposes a key flaw in the game which Arteta has shown and "campaigned against" in the past.

Having taken Valencia to two La Liga titles (having rarely dominated games and not won) I was offered the Milan job the day after my title winning game and took it. I put together a 4222 box midfield tactic and aimed to just win the last 3 games of the season. If Juve slipped up I would win the title. I won 2 and drew one of these games. I won convincingly away but struggled to create [good] chances at home and hence won 1-0 and drew 0-0.

Into the next season and I have the strongest squad in the league. First two games of the season I have similar problems to the previous one. So I change a few things: sarrows, TTB, forward runs, RWB in a way that kind of sounded logical and which I thought would work. I began to have lots of success away but was again scraping wins at home having similar match stats as the OP. So I changed a few more things for when I played at home, in particular some sarrows and stuff. However it may not have been the small tweaking changes that caused my turn it fortunes, it could have been a whole host of unknown or unforseen variables. I'm now starting to really succeed btw, but I couldn't tell you exactly why.

I have drawn two conclusions:

1. Situations like the one shown by the OP are avoidable and correctable, however:
2. I (and probably most others) have only a very vague and rough idea as to how.


We don't say both (I don't [intend to] anyway). I personally feel it's one or the other. You could be unlucky once or twice but if it's persistant it probably is tactics, man management, etc (once again, the actual flaw is that most of us have little idea as to precisely why certain tactics/man management stretgies may/may not work at certain times).

I still cling to the belief that if you get things right for a match you will win 9/10 times. The question is: how do you get things right, and how do you know what things are wrong?



PS. Replaying games (a seemingly opular experiment) proves nothing as there are always constants that may be the actual problem that any amount of changes in tactics directly before a game will not change or correct or cancel out.

retired_FaultyFate

Hammer,

With all respect I must tell that you contradict yourself way too often. You admit that you use tactic set created by someone else, and yet you say YOU are good at this game. Sorry mate but, if anybody, the person(s) who created this set should take credit or blame. The tactic set you use consists of 25 tactics, and you claim you always know which one to pick. How? The person who created the set told you? What if he is wrong or simply you misread the situation? Sorry, but it looks like you take textbook, find most similar example and apply it. Sometimes it works, but often fail. Textbooks are written to give people IDEAS, not to be applied as unique solution. You paid £25 and what did you expect for that? A game that will mimic YOUR understanding of football? Sorry, but it's not unisize hat. You are saying that many people agree with you. Fair, but once you see someone who disagrees (actually a lot of people) the only response you have "You fail to see the obvious". Well, I could tell the same to you, but there is no proof whether one of us is right. I could have posted quite a few screenshots, looking at which AI would say "He cheated" because I had 40% posession, 3 shots on target (vesrsus 10 or something like this from AI) and still won (2-0, 3-1 whatever). I have no clue whether I picked everything right (I would be flattered to know I did) or got lucky. One thing I can tell you - if I had been beaten to death in one match, I spent 30 real minutes to look at stats, match reports, replay highlights etc. to understand what happened. 95% I find answers, and they have nothing to do with cheating.

Sky King

kolobok mate,

Very well written. I agree 100%.

retired_Cat1123

Fair do's boy's, but if if do find someone to take the game apart and prove that it in fact DOES have these cheats present, then i shall be expecting a big fat apology from all the doubters!.

How's that sound?.

retired_rayrhi

In order to discuss a concept or an idea, in this case how something behaves or acts, one has to know the nature of that thing or concept in order to discuss its properties. Let's take the golf swing. The golf swing is made up of a selection of elements that have been proved to constitute a successful swing: the grip, the stance, the posture, the back swing, hip movement, head very still, eye on the ball etc. etc.) It's very easy to discuss the golf swing and observe what is right and what is wrong, what is beautiful about it (Tiger Woods), and what is ugly (my swing). Where am I going with this? Well, if you take our whole tactical discussion and truly think about what we are talking about, it's profoundly laughable that all of this time we have been talking about nothing. Zero, nada, nil, nothing. If you want to theorise that x + y + n + c = success, then you have to know what each of the letters of the equation are. It's already common knowledge that we don't know what ANY of the sliders do exactly. Yes, I would go as far as stating that we don't know what ANY of the sliders do.

FM Classroom, we are all sitting there, teacher walks in, tells us all to shut up and immediately asks us all these questions:

What does man-marking do? Errr, marks the person relevant to that position. Does it? What if he's tight marked? Errr, well I'd have to know what man marking does first. What does mentality do? Errrr, makes him pass differently? behave differently? Moves him higher or lower up on pitch? Well what are forward arrows for boy? Errr, don't know. What does the defensive line do? Errr, SI says it moves the defensive line up and down but it clearly doesn't. Errr, Rashidi and Leroy claim that it is explicitly linked to closing down, but it's complicated and illogical. So what DOES closing down do? Errr, well there's an invisible circle that the player will close down in if the opposition comes into it. But what if the defensive line and mentality is set to 1 boy? Errr, then the invisible circle is halved, sir. And what about tempo, boy? Well, the devotees say that the ranters miss all of their chances when tempo is too high, and SI state that it's explicitly linked to passing, but I am sure I have seen Arsenal play a short passing high tempo system on the tele. What about creative freedom? Well the manual says that the higher it is the less your team will adhere to instructions, but I've watched the match a thousand times and they all seem to act the same. So how do you stop your defender scoring an own in the 94th against ten men after repeating the same match 27 times? Err, know it's going to happen and bring him off at half-time.

You see, as comical as this sounds, this is what this forum sounds like to me. At no point have we dealt in fact, which means at no point has anyone spoke the truth. The only thing I can conclude that IS FACT, is the ludicrous shots on goal/goals ratio. That is one thing that you simply can not hide from, whether you think screenshots are conclusive or not. The proof is there, and because the reply is always the same "IT'S YOUR TACTICS", well I've already mentioned that by telling us this, you are telling us NOTHING.