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I think you have to draw distinctions between two things here:
1 - There are some of the sliders that are intended to cause effects in the match engine, but have strange results. Some of these are not working quite correctly, but I expect that SI will further tweak the engine to get this right over time. Some are frustrating, sure, but at least you can see that they try to do what they say on the tin.
2 - There are some of the sliders that probably do exactly what SI wanted them to do, but are not described very well in the manual. Don't get me wrong, the manual explains very well what each of these sliders does and if you were trying to write a football dictionary, it works very well. What it doesn't do however is to explain in any detail. I'll give you an example. Check out the descriptions of "Playmaker". It's absolutely correct of course, but what does it mean? Another example is "Creative Freedom". What the manual gives is an excellent description of what this means but it doesn't really tell us what it does. You see the problem is that we ned to be able to understand under what circumstances "players occassionally ignore your tactical instructions" and how to determine what are the key areas of "technical prowess" of the players.
What the manual/engine/tactics is lacking is an effective way to communicate clearly what you want the players to do under certain circumstances. I know we've argued the whole "with ball" and "without ball" thing to death (and I don't expect or really want this back), but I think the reason people liked it was because it was clear.
I actually prefer the direction of the tactics better now but would like it to be simplified. But as I've already said (maybe even on this thread), this does not mean reducing the number of tactical options. It just means that I'd like a clear means of translating what I want to do onto the pitch.
I feel at the moment that I can get individual sliders to do roughly what I want, but I have to make compromises all over because of the effect that one slider has on another (e.g. Mentality, Creative Freedom, Closing down). And then of course I have to try to work out what attributes are key in each match engine decision. Again I know what attributes should be taken into account, but I don't know what opinions SI had when implementing these so I don't know the strength of each one. It's a bit like trying to use Spanish to explain to my team (who all speak French) what I want them to do. I know exactly what I want to say, but I don't have the necessary vocabulary to achieve it.
Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by GillsMan: This thread contains lots of great, constructive ideas for the future of the ME.
sorry for missing that thread. I will copy this link to your's and write further to your's </BLOCKQUOTE>
even though your thread is more like wishlist thread not discussion. I changed my mind
it's team's style of play -> attacking and defending. so more attacking this style is more players will perticipate (have attacking duties) when the team is in ball possesion. via versa more defensive mentality is more players will defend (have defensive duties) while possesion is lost.
mentality is also balance between defending and attacking . with how many players a team attacks/defends.
all that (mentality) should be understanded as a tendency . players try to perform their duties. it's not allways possibile as human factor is present. that's why there are players better in defending and those who prefer attacking duties.
-what it does?
most obvious segment of mentality is transforming of defending and attacking shape. more attacking tactics is more players will leave their defoult position in formation. they will also do it more often. via versa defensive tactics try their formations not to get too streched by attacking moves as they leave space for opposition to use. that is a forward runs segment of tactics.
mentality in my opinoum shouln't have influence on how quick the ball gets forward as it does now in FM. passing style and tempo should influence that.
-what are attacking/defensive duties?
the most attacking tactic is one in which all 10 (11) players attack equaly and they think only about attacking/moving forward. of course such a tactic (gung ho) isn't possibile to play all the time. that's why there are duties. basic distinction would be that defenders defend and attackers attack. but in football all players do both. not nacessery at same intensity.
it means that duty is an instruction. more defensive it is less player has to bother with attacking moves (dribling, creating chances, going forward, shooting...). but again it is a tendency. even centre back have their attacking duties and strikers defensive duties.
tactical duties/instructions are (few of many): stay back/hold your position (more often), go forward (more often), try through balls, drible, hug line, double mark opponent, come deep, back off (easy tackle) opponent, playmaker, target man roles...
nice suggestion would be that those prefered moves could become player duties/instructions.
another thing that needs changing is forward runs. they are allready given by mentality; team mentality. so we wouldn't have to use forward runs slider anymore, only mentality. if we wanted our DC to stay back we would just tick "stay back" instruction, for example.
I understand player mentality as " positional height on set position ". example; giving your MC the most attacking mentality he becomes smth like 2nd striker, or "very attacking attacking midfielder", when team is in ball posession. via versa giving him the most defensive mentality he acts more like "very defensive DM", when team is without the ball. also I would change the number of notches on player mentality.
maybe the most significant thing about team and player mentality is that they are not the same. it also means they shouldn't over-write each other. it also means that, more defensive team mentality is, more defensive duties/ more players with dfensive duties should be present. and via versa.
The problem as I see it is:
To get a player to perform a tactical instruction you have to adjust the sliders in the correct combinations, agreed?. Though those have been analysed in T&TF some will contradict each other though the IRL those player instructions wouldnt. I think each player should have a set of routines which are selected by drop down menu and when that is done the slider move to automatic positions to meet that instruction taking into account the players position on the field. Then the players stats & PPM's decide how well the instruction is executed. If SI cant do that it is surely an admission that the slider system is faulty?
The tactical "fun" of FM should be giving the right general instructions to players (IRL eg "you full back, overlap the winger, but if we lose position get back quick & tuck in") not tweaking sliders & trying to achieve the result desired.
Originally posted by Mitja:
some hypothetical thoughts about mentality.
-WHAT IS MENTALITY?
.
I agree almost all u told here, but there is something to add IMO:
- when a team play defensively, their players should avoid to take risks; so when near they own area with opponents closing down, kick the ball away or however try a long ball instead than try a dribbling (--> dont risk to lose ball conceding a easy chance)
- obivously when a team play with attacking mentality, their players should try to retain the ball even when opponents are closing down.
defensive and attacking shapes of formations could actually be different. sometimes it's hard to say what formation the team is playing, IRE. due to free roles, unpredictable movements, tactical discipline, human factor and def/att shapes of formation.
as it is now, FM formation aspect is very old and will need to change. some other games are way ahead on this metter. (as I read, becouse I didn't play them, only PES). I think in FIFA you can choose defensive and attacking formation (4-5-1, 4-3-3; 4-4-2, 2-4-4). good solution but not perfect.
I think when defending, team is suposed to know it's formation. also it is important to stay in it and hold it. on the other hand when attacking the team needs to be unpredictable. it means that attacking shape isn't so defined, due to constant movement of players. of couse there are teams who play with more tactical discipline, more in shape so they can return easily to defensive formation/shape. but more dangerous it wants to be, more movement and risk is needed. both positioning and movement is maybe my biggest resentment to FM for years.
managers devote great attention to this metter. quick transformation from narrow and compact defensive shape to attacking positions. it's all about movement.
DEFENSIVE FORMATION/SHAPE
WHAT IS IT?
it's just the shape taken by players to defend when the ball isn't in posession.
4-4-2, 5-3-2, 4-1-4-1. any known formation.
important things are marking systems, defensive line, width, presing styles...
Football Manager:
when the formation is choosen you set both att/def shapes of it. this needs to be separated. in my opinoum you should be able to choose your defensive formation. attacking formation should be based on mentality, tactical discipline (how much you want your players to leave their postitions, given individualy) and movement of players.
my proof is that there are not 2 teams who play flat 4-4-2 exatcly the same. their defensive shapes are pretty much the same but attacking shapes are different. it would be much easier to me if I could draw, but I'll put it in numbers.
so 4-4-2 is defensive formation. attacking formation could be anything from 4-4-2, 2-4-4, 2-2-2-2-2, 2-4-2-2 any combination even 3-3-4 if you want. all this is a tendency depending on many factors (mentality, movement...)
ATTACKING TRANSORMATION
this is where things should change the most. I know we have arrows and barrows and sarrows. problem is that this kind of movement is too strict and not suficient. anyone who played old CMs remebers you could choose def/att positioning of your players in all 3 (was it even 5?) of the pitch (own area, centre and opponent area).
and that could be very interesting solution to the movement of players. so it's movement instead of only positioning as it was back then. you should be able to define your player's movement for each part of the field. with arrows. not just 1 arrow. it's smth like those arrows on PES, but for every part of the pitch. it's important becouse you might want your players to move diffrently in thier own half or near opponent goal. of course players shouldn't follow your movement instructions to blindly. so again it should be understanded more like tendency.
in this way we should be able to play our pacey right winger on the flank, triyng to cross or come into box. much like wingers play now on FM. let's say arrow(s) in the final third of the pitch would look like this:
l
l
l
M R
l
l
l
this should meen his mein movement is down the line. he should be allowed to come deeper for the ball or go forward. team mentality should define how often he should go forward.
I would like my right footed left winger to act like one. so I should be able to define his movement with arrows like this:
M L -->
l
l
l
this means that his movement should be oriented toward more central positions (cutting inside) and that I want him to come deep more often. of course it doesn't meen that's he shouldn't get forward when apropriate.
mentality is very important factor. team mentality should define how much/ how often you want your players to go forward. tactical discipline (maybe better expression would be how much free role you give to a player, so free role slider) should define how often player leaves his defoult position and moves around.
When I start ordering professional tactical training books off Amazon to try and attempt to understand a PC game, I know there is something wrong.
I did do that kind of thing too. Haha.
Well, thanx Mitja and I'm coming here.
First I want to be nice and fair to say again that this is a good game and apparently has its own advantage comparing to other football managing games on the market. And we appreciate the efforts SI made all through these years and now I'm not young anymore either. But since other games are still chasing FM series and they really did a lot of nice hard work I believe, so we should not loose our concentration on continuously improving the game (FM series).
As many wise guy points out, the ME (match engine) is the heart of the football game. I can see some obvious progress like: in previous version (I don't remember which one maybe fm2006) wingers always take the ball to the byline and make crosses but mostly deflected by defender to become a corner; then in the later version wingers' movement has improved they seem more intelligent and now in FM 2008 we can see the wingers are good on deciding when to dribble or cross or pass back or shoot. And the strikers are also much better cos' previously they just shoot and rarely make crosses to other teammate with better chance. And in 8.0 I also remember some nice dribbles wingers make that they use fake moves and tricks to shake defenders behind by sudden accelerating. But in 8.0.1 I don't see that again or not so beautiful and realistic. Maybe it's that SI tweak the effect of acceleration down too much. And I'm always suspicious that the 8.0 and 8.0.1 are based on different match engine system, also to 7.0 and 7.0.1. If I'm right SI might be mad at me and if I'm wrong it might be because of the too much difference between patch *.0.1 to *.0. Hehe
After thinking all these days I decide not to concentrate on some certain behaviour of the players which the match engine provides. I think maybe it's like this (I don't know if I'm right or you would agree with me):
1. The game is well-orgainzied and possess the best database in the world. So many attributes to a player, a staff, a club, a competition and others.
2. When the game starts large amount of statistics will be generated mostly by the ME (match engine). Most importantly the final result of matches, the shot on target of both team, the possession, the fouls, the runs, key passess, key interceptions. All these stats are generated by the ME. And these stats must be "in line with real world data" as we can see in the changelist. And to achieve that goal match engine must be tuned and tweaked because it is the only one who generates all these stats. It's so crucial and core part of the game.
3. So that's why I understand it's not an easy job for SI, because we're still complaining about so much. Ok, to sum up, I feel in this way, I'm not asking to let us create some tactic that is stable and consistant and be winning matches all along. I mean it's ok if I lose, as long as I can see the players do their best on the pitch and they make some nice individual and teamwork moves and I feel I'm like watching a real match. The game has to be enjoyable and that's dependant on how much realism it has when watching the 2d match. I mean maybe I don't understand match engine well and I don't make good tactics and my team loses, it's ok but the match has to look real on 2d screen. Irl when you watch the match on TV you can always see players helping each other, when a player has the ball the other players will positively move to provide passing options and attacking spaces options. I hope you get what I mean.
I always watch videos of real life football matches when playing FM after I click "Continue" button. There's still much spaces to improve!!!
I did do that kind of thing too. Haha.
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