leftfoot

A lot of people when dissecting the "look at how many shots I had and I still couldn't score" threads state that tempo if set too quick results in strikers hitting shots too early or not taking an extra touch. In my opinion if this is true then something in the match engine should be changed.

My argument against tempo affecting players in and around the box is that in real life football is it does not matter what the tactical set up is once the chance has been created.

- in a one on one a player's ability/morale/condition versus the goalkeeper's ability/morale/condition plus a little bit of luck will determine whether or not a one on one chance is converted. Also the one on one chances of success will be affected by the angle at which the one on one is reached. The tempo the team is playing at should be an irrelevant factor.

- if a player breaks free of the last defender whether or not he shoots early or continues into the available space towards the goal is going to be determined by his own mental attributes plus how quickly the opposition defenders close him down (does he feel the opposition defender breathing down his neck and if so how does he respond), as well as how the opposition goalkeeper behaves (how quickly he comes off his line to narrow the angle). In real life I don't see a player thinking "the gaffer told us to play at a fast tempo so I better let one fly" even though there is nothing but fresh air between him and the goal.

- if a winger gets in behind the opposition full back, and onto a cross in a goal scoring opportunity, whether or not he hits it first time or takes the extra touch will depend on how much space he has and his own mental attributes. In real life his mental stats will determine what he decides to do next based on the scenario at hand. As with the striker in the above example the overall tempo of the play that led to the chance will have no bearing on what he decides to do.

- if a striker makes a run to pull away from the defender and receives the ball in space with room to move into in order to reduce the distance to goal or improve the shooting angle, then his mental attributes will determine whether or not he chooses to do this. Again I don't believe the tempo the team plays at has any influence on what he decides to do. It should not make him snatch at a shot.

In my experience of playing the game if a top class Premiership side and a Conference South side are set up identically using the in game slider system, then in all of the above scenarios the players seem to behave in a similar manner (this is based on playing the game rather then any in depth statistical analysis so if you have experienced it differently feel free to post your thoughts on the inaccuracy of this statement). So essentially one of the key elements that differentiates the quality players from the average players is lost.

As an illustrative example consider a player in each of the scenarios above who has the maximum mental attributes. In my opinion the two key attributes in these scenarios based on the FM attribute model are composure and decisions. If a player has 20 for both then regardless of the team's tactical settings these attributes, in conjunction with his belief in his own ability i.e. morale, should determine what he chooses to do next in the majority of occasions he finds himself in those situations (of course a random element should be introduced to avoid it becoming overly repetitive and predictable). Whether or not he successfully does as he intended will depend on his technical attributes.

Do you believe this 'tempo effect' should be removed?

If players are aware of where they are on the pitch is it possible to remove the tempo setting from a player's decision in the above scenarios when the match engine calculates what will happen next?

Or do you disagree completely?

retired_vickie12

Good post and i agree with what you say.

Emm

Oi! I thought I had the monopoly on ridiculously long thread titles .

(About to read now).

retired_dancingneko

Good post.

I'd prefer if they just merged Tempo and Time Wasting. So that an extremely slow Tempo would mean time wasting, and the higher up you go the less of a patient build up it would be. That's just my opinion.

I like the idea of having a Tempo, but do agree that once a GOOD goal-scoring opportunity is created, the tempo should have no bearing on the outcome. Higher tempo should just mean more interceptions by defenders due to rushed passing, not that strikers will miss their golden opportunities.

Emm

I agree with what you are suggesting happens when a high tempo game is being played, but I do not agree that it should be scrapped.

I think what it forces a player to do is make a decision, (whatever that decision may be), earlier than he may have done had the team been instructed to play a slower temp style a play.

This may mean a quick first time pass to where he thinks a team-mate should be, or a first-time snap shot at goal.

I think the match engine shows this pretty realistically.

You are also trying to lay the blame of the 1v1 chances spurned at the door of the "temp setting". I would suggest that this is exactly the same even with a slow buld-up where the ball is played long over the top for an onrushing striker. The 1v1 issues are completely seperate to this and are caused by too many chances being created, not the inability to take these chances.

Your example of a Premiership team playing a hight temp game against a Conference South side who are also playing a similar style game is a good one, however I believe you have come to the wrong conclusions.

In real life it would be likely that both teams might play in this way, however with quite a distinct difference in the end product. The Premiersghip teams ability with the balkl would be far superior and you would expect them to pake not only more succesful passes, but also more key passes intob the danger-zone. The lower league on the other hand would not see as much of the ball because more passes would miss their intewnded target and their off the ball movement would not be as good so they would be easier to close down and mark. For the lower leafgue tean, their high temp game might involve a high tempo level of closing down without the ball rather than with it.

As someone who started wuth a team of appalling ability and has created a tactic with max temp and min pass length, I have regularly come "a cropper" against weaker teams who have defended well and hit me on the break.

To my mind there are a number of issues with the match engine, but the influence that the "tempo" slider has on it is not one of them.

Well done for making sense and asking a question in a reasonable and articulate manner though. It's a refreshing change from the norm in here at the moment. :thup:

retired_ComfyRest

I do agree with much of what you say, but i totally don't agree with what some people say that it's because of tempo.
IMO 1v1 is bugged anyway and not related to tempo.
What i think what tempo does do, is that it produces a higher amount of chances in the match.
Of course higher pace will not always give your own team more opportunity's.
In fact it can also give the opposition sometimes more chances because your players will more easily loose possession.
I do notice that viewing lower league matches and EPL matches really are different from each other.
EPL matches have more curved shots and faster pace while lower league games almost never have such shots.
But between EPL and championship matches really is no difference, they all look like if the players are from the same quality, and maybe this is something that needs to be improved in future if possible.
Basically i never really agreed with the statement that 1v1 chances get missed because of tempo, i do think it's only because of the bug that they miss to many chances.
Reason why is because the tactics i use at this moment have tempo on "5", and also my strikers miss many 1v1's.

Dav1d

It's not 1 on 1's which are bugged its simply the fact that you can create too many chances. Tactics are everything in this game, not that I agree it should be but you can win trophies with poor teams if you're tactics are right and of course this is the same irl to a certain extent. However, it seems that the AI is making the games balanced by making the Gk's better but this is simply down to having too many chances. So if you create a tactic which dominates but doesn't give you 30 or 40 shots a match, you will be alright. It shouldn't really be like that but this is a game and certain things have to be done a certain way because coders are limited with what they can do.

retired_ComfyRest

Sorry just noticed i didn't answer your question! :o
No i don't think it should be removed.
BTW quality post! :thup:

retired_vocostoner311

Agree, and notice the tempo hasn't any effect with me. Slow tempo or fast stil need 15 chances

leftfoot

Do I get to go on the infamous 'list'?

I wasn’t suggesting that playing at a high tempo necessarily results in creating these types of chances (although that might be the case) but rather that if tempo is a reason for players shooting too early/not taking advantage of the space/not taking the extra touch in the above scenarios(as suggested by posters offering tactical reasons for poor conversion rates) then in my opinion this is not a true reflection of football and tempo should be removed from the calculation that governs a player’s decision in said scenarios.

I don’t believe it should be removed entirely (although I do have issues with the concept of tempo not only in FM but in real life football as well but that’s a whole different thread). It should just be removed in the scenarios in the original post where in my opinion it has no influence.

I agree entirely with your description of the effect of tempo and have no major disagreement with how it affects players in this way at all parts of the pitch except for in the scenarios I outlined above. The second sentence in the quote illustrates where our opinions diverge. Should it affect the speed of passing? Yes. Should it affect the decision to shoot first time? I don’t believe so.

Good point :thup:. I think the too many chances syndrome is more indicative of poor defensive behaviour but that’s for another thread. Your observation of slow tempo when incorporated in the right tactics creating just as many missed one on ones suggests that the assumption of tempo playing a role in one on one scenarios is false (which makes this thread largely redundant). I have never seen someone from SI state that high tempo affects one on ones so until they do it will always be a case of speculation based on observation.

I don’t disagree with any of this but you have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. The difficulty of internet communication and the cause of many insults on forums across the web . Unless of course I’m misinterpreting the point you were making .

The point of that comparison was that if tempo was the cause of players shooting too early then it seems to have an over riding effect on key mental attributes that should separate the men from the boys so to speak. Basically what I was getting at was that in my experience of managing at the different levels that when a player was in a position close to goal to take the extra touch or move into available space to improve the goalscoring opportunity, then IF my tempo was too high the player would invariably shoot early whether they were BSS or Premiership quality.

I am willing to accept that I could be wrong about this behaviour given my exposure to lower league management in FM 08 was a brief 8 month stint at Fisher (sacked for losing the confidence of the players and I then returned to selling used cars in the FM world). From your previous posts I know you play LLM exclusively so if your experience differs then there’s a high probability I’m wrong.

As with Jimbokav1971 both of you have played at lower tempo and suffered from poor 1v1 conversion rates (and SOG/Goal Ratios in eXistenZ’s case), suggesting tempo in of itself is not the issue.

Just to clarify my original post was inspired by people suggesting tempo as a cause for taking too many shots to score, hence the title. But even if these ‘bugs’ did not exist my argument for tempo being irrelevant to certain types of chances still stands (assuming that tempo is part of the calculation in the ME).

:thup: That sums it up in one nice sentence.

I guess it's true what someone once told me: “You really do like to take the long route to get to a point, don’t you”