retired_ComfyRest

As with Jimbokav1971 both of you have played at lower tempo and suffered from poor 1v1 conversion rates (and SOG/Goal Ratios in eXistenZ’s case), suggesting tempo in of itself is not the issue.

Just to clarify my original post was inspired by people suggesting tempo as a cause for taking too many shots to score, hence the title. But even if these ‘bugs’ did not exist my argument for tempo being irrelevant to certain types of chances still stands (assuming that tempo is part of the calculation in the ME).
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I play always at home with slow tempo and away with medium tempo.
When it comes to 1v1's in both settings i score/miss them at the same rate.
I do have more 1v1 situations abroad then home but that seems realistic.

In your OP i do agree with you assuming the problem was based on tempo.
But i think Jimbokav is right that there are to many chances and probably SI have tweaked the strikers and GK's so that scores wouldn't be to unrealistic.
This would also explain the many shots straight at the GK in such occasions.

beachjunie1015

Sorry to butt in...but haven't you forgotten about Technique, Finishing, and maybe First touch? :p

But I do agree that tempo shouldn't have any impact at all...I can ask, tell, demand a player to do something, but he will only do what he is capable of...and for top players, they are not going to follow what even the queen of England says to do on the field if it makes him look like a fool match after match...

In fact, having first heard the argument that tempo causes high SOT...I played half a season with tempo set at 19 and the second half set at 3...didn't notice that much different...not only to SOT, but to the overall match play (which in itself is alarming...)...no other changes to my 3 rotating tactics.

Speaking of tactics, I believe most gamers confuse tactics with formation...setting the same formation doesn't mean tactics are exactly the same...but that's for another thread...

I believe high SOT vs goal is partially caused by poor defending but primarily caused by a lack of midfield action...that too is a topic for another thread...

There's still a lot of work for SI to carry out on the ME...no advantage play, ridiculous throw ins, corner after corner, laughable off-side calls, unbalanced match rating and so on...those are topics for yet another thread...

To the OP...I took charge of Man U and Harrogate Town, set both teams tactics to be exactly the same (not default...) and played them against each other in a friendly...Man U won 4-2...SOTs were 32 vs 17...this may sound realistic to some, but if Harrogate can get 17 shots ON TARGET playing against Man U...something is seriously wrong...yup, this is for another thread too...

All in all...great post and banter...this is truly the way to go in any forum... :thup:

firefighterhilf

Great thread :thup:

At first glance I agree that tempo should perhaps have little effect on a players ability to convert chances. But then I read this:

I have to say I agree completely with this. Mentality for me should mainly impact how far forward the striker is looking to get and when. Time wasting should be nothing to do with this as stated. I'd hate to see my striker be through on goal but decide to try and run the ball towards the corner just because I have time wasting set high.

So for me there should be a link between Creative Freedom, Tempo and the individual attributes of the player (as outlined by Amaroq)

So a player should be more likely to rush a shot with tempo set high if his creative freedom is restricted. From there his attributes will determine how successful that rushed shot will be.

If his creative freedom is high then it's pretty much up to him if he wants to take the first time shot or not, and whichever decision he makes it will be again down to his attributes how successful the shot is.

Looking back over that it's pretty much exactly what Amaroq said, except that Amaroq said it better

retired_dellydoolittle

Sorry to butt in...but haven't you forgotten about Technique, Finishing, and maybe First touch? :p

But I do agree that tempo shouldn't have any impact at all...I can ask, tell, demand a player to do something, but he will only do what he is capable of...and for top players, they are not going to follow what even the queen of England says to do on the field if it makes him look like a fool match after match...

In fact, having first heard the argument that tempo causes high SOT...I played half a season with tempo set at 19 and the second half set at 3...didn't notice that much different...not only to SOT, but to the overall match play (which in itself is alarming...)...no other changes to my 3 rotating tactics.

Speaking of tactics, I believe most gamers confuse tactics with formation...setting the same formation doesn't mean tactics are exactly the same...but that's for another thread...

I believe high SOT vs goal is partially caused by poor defending but primarily caused by a lack of midfield action...that too is a topic for another thread...

There's still a lot of work for SI to carry out on the ME...no advantage play, ridiculous throw ins, corner after corner, laughable off-side calls, unbalanced match rating and so on...those are topics for yet another thread...

To the OP...I took charge of Man U and Harrogate Town, set both teams tactics to be exactly the same (not default...) and played them against each other in a friendly...Man U won 4-2...SOTs were 32 vs 17...this may sound realistic to some, but if Harrogate can get 17 shots ON TARGET playing against Man U...something is seriously wrong...yup, this is for another thread too...

All in all...great post and banter...this is truly the way to go in any forum... :thup: </BLOCKQUOTE>

exellant post mate, a little depresing after reading it (all those topics for another thread)...

retired_miked

I personally think the major thing that’s wrong is the ridiculous number of shots per game. It's far too many to be considered realistic.

For instance just take a look at the OPTA stats for Man U over 22 games played.

Man U have scored 44 goals at 2 goals a game.
They’ve had 320 shots and 152 on target which is 14.5 shots per game and 6.9 on target.
Even in the recent destruction of Newcastle they managed 6 goals, 24 shots, 16 on target.

Now take a look at your own teams stats in FM. I can bet you they are greater than the current most attacking team in the prem.
I know my mid table Derby team out performs Man U’s for shots and % on target.

Realistic? I think not.

retired_echater

I agree to a certain extent. I wouldn't argue that tempo is totally irrelevant: playing at a high tempo and rushing most decisions a player makes certainly has an effect on a player's mental state when a chance arises, even though the manager's words themselves won't encourage players to make rash decisions when given space and time. The effect is much less acute than it appears to be for FM, however. Ideally this effect should be scaled heavily according to composure etc (it probably is, but not to the optimum level) so a nervy centre half who has been instructed to slide in and welly it at every available opportunity will instinctively do the same thing when the ball breaks to him in front of an open goal but will probably keep a cooler head if he's been instructed to take his time and not worry about opposition pressure; whereas a classy striker will usually have the composure to bring the awkwardly bouncing ball under control, step infield to improve the angle and then slot home regardless of how much his manager emphasised being quick about everything he does.

Additionally, nerfing striker's abilities at high tempo somewhat more than at low tempo makes it less easy to achieve success using direct, high tempo football and physical strikers which has long been a weakness of the FM match engine due to the relative difficulty of programming good defensive decision making compared with good attacking decision making. In conjunction with emphasis on mental attributes, this should assure your quick strikers and big target men have to be mentally strong to properly take advantage of defensive mixups caused by playing at tempo.

IMO this sort of decision making is exactly what tempo should affect.

A high tempo setting is the equivalent of a manager saying "force the play to create chances; don't give the opposition a chance to think" and a low tempo setting is the equivalent of saying "keep the ball in your possession where possible; take your time in making decisions and try to be precise in everything you do"

In a case where a winger has a reasonable degree of space to play a 50/50 ball across the goalmouth a winger on high tempo should nearly always be looking to play the early ball to catch the defence flat footed, whilst a winger on low tempo should nearly always be looking to bring the ball under control, carefully pick out the angle and attempt as precisely weighted a cross as he's capable of (and perhaps give passing to an overlapping player with better crossing abilities or cutting inside more consideration).

To be honest, if you're watching a top class Premiership side in the last few minutes of the game playing direct as well as high tempo football in a desperate attempt to steal a result there probably isn't a whole lot of difference in the decisions the players make compared with a Conference South side doing the same thing (although the Premiership players will need to be more mentally sharp to get away from their markers in the first place as well as having superior technical and physical abilities). It's well known that certain styles of play largely negate the advantages of having intelligent and creative players whilst giving the big donkeys a chance to shine

retired_w0lfpack1

:thup: Thanks, I was starting to think nobody'd read that post, as all the other replies ignored it!

retired_w0lfpack1

Well said, arrogantio. :thup: Your second paragraph, in particular, but I agree with everything you said.

retired_ComfyRest

:thup: Thanks, I was starting to think nobody'd read that post, as all the other replies ignored it! </BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't replied yesterday because i agree with your post.
You might want to add the slider for "running with ball".
I think when that is set to "much" then he might want to take that extra step before shooting.
I don't think "time waisting" has any effect on a real chance, but to be honest i only use that in tight games in last 10 minutes.

leftfoot

An excellent argument as to if sliders affect a player’s behaviour in these scenarios then that is logically how one would expect them to. It seems from the way people have responded is that it is a subjective question dependent on the individual’s perspective and consequent opinion. As I stated in the opening post I believe the slider settings should be irrelevant and as Mitja stated I feel footballing instinct should be the determining factor but the logic you applied in your description of how sliders might affect the player’s behaviour has put a few cracks in the foundations of my argument.

As alluded to by Jimbokav1971 and Mitja to me what separates players (assuming physical equivalence for simplicity) is two key things:-

1. Footballing Intelligence: what they decide to do in a given scenario
2. Technique: whether or not they can pull it off

To use Amaroq’s example (as it more succinct and paints a better picture than mine)

In this instance when the striker picks up the ball he makes an instantaneous assessment of the situation and decides what to do based on his footballing intelligence. How calmly he does this is affected by his composure. How well he does it is affected by his technique. I don’t believe tempo, or any other tactical setting, comes into it.

For example consider two strikers of equivalent footballing intelligence who both decide that based on where their team mates are, where the opposition defenders are and where the goalkeeper is positioned, that they will attempt to curl the ball into the far corner. Then technique comes into play. The striker with better technique/finishing will pick his spot more accurately. The player with the lesser technique will not make clean contact and scuff it right at the keeper. It’s one of those situations where you can see what the player intended to do but he just didn’t get it right.

Yet in my opinion neither of those players when they process their surroundings and make that decision are incorporating any of the tactical instructions their manager has given them into what they decide to do. So what I am arguing is that when the match engine models this that the calculation that decides what the player will attempt to do next does not incorporate any tactical settings in it but is instead a function of the player’s attributes only.

This has made me consider that a secondary issue with my post might be my expectations of how intelligent ‘Artificial Intelligence’ actually is. In many respects it’s a credit to the game that it sucks me in to the extent I expect these little dots to behave like their real life counterparts. You can see how off the ball, finishing, composure etc. might separate these players but in my opinion there are a couple of elements missing:-

1. Natural goalscoring instinct
2. Knowing your own intentions

1 is fairly self explanatory and might be contained in the right combination of existing attributes.

The second one is harder to describe in a phrase but from seeing Kuyt play a few times (any hardcore Liverpool reading this feel free to disagree) he is a good example. Sometimes he just looks like he doesn’t really know what his intentions are when he gets the ball, he just puts his head down and runs in the general direction of the goal. He doesn’t seem to get his head up often enough nor have awareness of the pitch. If anyone reading this feels I’m talking out of my arse feel free to say so as it is just my opinion.

Whether or not this is something that is programmable I don’t know but maybe my expectation of players being coded to perform in an intelligent manner without reference to controlling variables, i.e. sliders, is a little far fetched.

I think that again raises questions about expectations of AI and the actual current capabilities. Is it possible to code independent thought in those little dots or will they follow instructions blindly if the right combination of sliders is used (I use this clarification as IIRC SI have stated that creative freedom affects the extent to which players follow instructions). Does their personality actually affect their performance? If they have you as a disliked personnel does it affect the match engine and how they perform i.e. will they follow your instructions? As you said with some of your other excellent points probably a discussion for another thread.

I’ve seen a number of people comment on poor defensive behaviour, and as you said maybe a thread could be started where people can post screenshots illustrating this. The thing with poor defending is that I am not sure whether it is something to be classified as a bug or poor coding or it is actually working the way the programmers intended

Excellent point. I had not considered the psychological knock on effect of how a player has made other decisions based on tactics, and how this might affect him in a separate game scenario. If that is coded in the game then :thup: to SI. If not then in my opinion it should be if possible.

That’s an intriguing idea. Do you think the same should apply between different quality strikers also? Instead of considering strikers consider the ability of players to finish regardless of their natural position, and they would be influenced more by tactical settings, like tempo, the worse they get.

That again is an interesting point which I hadn’t considered. I don’t disagree with the logic behind your reasoning, but will ask you this question: do you not think that whichever of those choices a player makes (and of course their ability to do it) is what differentiates quality players from run of the mill players?

This is just a theory but reading your post and then writing the above reply I had one of those lightbulb moments. A lot of the people who complain (I am not using this in a derogatory sense) about the game often point out that tactics appear to diminish differences in player abilities to a greater extent than in real life. Without knowing exactly how the match engine works, don’t the differing opinions we have seem to illustrate this very complaint?

If what you are describing is throwing a big man up front and lumping the ball to him that’s a fair assessment. I have no issue with tempo affecting player’s decisions then as the key is get the ball in the box i.e. high tempo. My issue is if tempo affects the player when the chance is created. Consider this equivalent chance being created for a Premiership quality striker and a Conference South quality striker. The full back for the team chasing the result picks up the ball and lumps it forward. The big man gets the flick on and the striker runs onto the ball behind the defensive line just outside the box. Now freeze the match at that exact moment. Which player do you think would make the better decision at this moment, the Premiership striker or the Conference South player? And do you think his attributes should determine what he does or the instructions of the manager?

If you think tempo should affect whether or not he hits it first time or takes advantage of the space to move closer to goal, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree .