retired_mdambros

If you view an outfield players attribute screen you will see 36 attributes. For a 'Keeper it shows 33, including 'Reflexes'

For any outfield player click on any attribute you like and you will immediately view a grahical representation of the set of training elements that influence that attribute. In the case of 'reflexes' it is Aerobic training.

You will also see, on the right, a list of all the attributes rated handily in alphabetical order.

Scroll down and you will then see a 37th attribute, namely 'Reflexes' that is not seen elsewhere in an outfield players profile.

Every outfield player in my squad (Tottenham) has a reflex rating.

A quick check with the default data base reveals that none of the players has a 'reflex' rating, except of course, for 'Keepers.

So, here is an attribute associated with a training set that we have no control over. I haven't been playing long enogh to see if the reflex attribute changes over time or if it stays fixed at the 'loading game' stage and remains static.

If you then check your shortlist for outfield players, and try the same method described below, you are denied the luxury of seeing the 'recent effects of training' In short you will have no idea if the players 'reflexes' are any good or if he's a donkey. (No offence to the breed)

I made a point in my post on 'Set Peice Training: A Ghost in the Machine' that there is no 'defensive' association with set piece training that improves responses of players NOT ACTIVE IN TAKING such set pieces, within FM07.

Here is further evidence of an inability for us to deliberately improve an attribute. As well as evidence of an 'invisible' but apparently game driven/required attribute we never usually see and can do nothing to influence through training. (Except 'Keepers) Strange!

To find out about your players, click on the Training Category button at the top of the screen, the click 'Aerobic' and up pops 'Reflexes'

My point is this. We have been making assumptions that we can influence a players atributes through all training sets. My concern is that there is in fact NO potential to influence the 'defending' of 'set pieces' by allocating a player to do so within the 'set piece' training set.

It is evident that the game engine is deciding to set a 'reflex' attribute for outfield players by a calculation, probably based on a mix of other pre-set conditions within the original default data base profile.

Is it doing the same thing for the defending of set pieces? And if so is it true (like reflexes) we cannot 'train for this? Alternatively, which elements and sets of training can we use to impact this important aspect of football gaming?

There have been some suggestions that 'Anticpation' 'Positioning' etc have more relevance, and I can see the logic in this and would welcome a discussion.

In the meantime, let's exorcise the ghost of illogical thinking that there are training routines that do things they evidently do not! And save us all from ellaborate training routines that won't genuinely impact the intentions we have, due to inbuilt restrictions in the game.

'Reflexes' are the case in point!

Mike McG

retired_rjw13838

There is no defensive set piece training or anything like that. The set piece category in training is merely a name for a category comprising of several attributes. It is not the team training to effectively carry out a set piece, its an individual working on his ability to take a corner, free-kick etc.

Everything in training is just about improving a players' individual attributes, there is no team training or anything. Its basically not comparable to real life, which makes it unrealistich, but better from a gameplay point of view. If you want real life like training, play FM05. They got rid of that though, because most people simply couldnt be bothered with it.

Reflexes is a goalkeeper attribute only. Sure, you can view the attribute for outfield players, but its simply not relevant for outfield players.

retired_mdambros

Thanks for further support on the 'defensive' set piece thread. But I'm wondering about your observation:-

If it isn't relevant for outfield players, why does the game engine apply a value for it somewhere between the default data base and loading a game?

My thinking is that there must be a reason for this subliminal function, otherwise why do it?

I suspect that reflexes are important for outfield players and argued as much elsewhere. For example, a loose ball in the area cannot only be subject to 'keepers reflexes. Surely your striker and the defenders need a stat that determines who gets to it first etc. Assuming anticipation/positioning are tactical elements aplicable to all players, then in the immediate vacinity of a lose ball the engine will need something that governs an outcome. For arguments sake, let's say first touch, technique and other factors are equivalent for all players in a given zone of the pitch, it makes sense to have a 'governing' factor that will determine things.

Acceleration may not be relevant when the ball is three feet away. Some other factor will be necessary for the game engine to 'decide' an event.

If reflexes are not relevant for outfield players, there would be not attribute at all. But there is, and it looks like we have no ability to influence it.

So if it's there (and it is for all outfield players) it must have a function.

Mike McG

retired_rjw13838

There are physical attributes, mental attributes which are both for goalies and outfield players. Outfield players then have outfield attributes and goalies have goalkeeper attributes, which you may have noticed.

All players do have every attribute though, the ones that arent applicable are simply not shown in the game. They are in the database however, where goalkeepers get 0's for all outfield attributes and outfield players get 0's for every goalkeeper attribute. 0 means random. They get 0's because it doesnt matter because it isnt relevant. Well, its only relevant if you play an outfield player in goal or a goalkeeper outfield...

Why the reflexe attribute is shown in the game for outfield players I dont know, it may be a bug. If its not, than its influence is negligible at best, otherwise it wouldnt be completely overlooked by researchers.

So in short, I think you're making too big a deal out of this and wasting your time. I know that sounds negative, but its not meant like that Its a good thing to want to get to the bottom of things, but in this particular case, in my opinion, there is nothing to be found.

retired_monica90

It contributes to the goalkeeper rating for outfield players maybe?

retired_mdambros

Thanks Benoit2. Not going to dwell on this too much but....

What puzzles me is this. The game is taking the random 0 for outfield reflexes and adding a value for every player, which is then an attribute for them viewed in the training screens, but not the profile. If it was only a bug, why would there be an attribute rating at all? We'd never see it. But we do and it's obviously meant to be there as part of an outfield players aerobic training.

Your probably right that it doesn't do much, but I'm going to have a player do much more aerobics and see if this stat improves. If it varies then we could infer that it, in turn, has some function in influencing the overall profile.

Has anybody else got any information on whether an outfield players 'Reflex' attribute changes?

More in hope than expectation......

retired_mdambros

Yep! this looks like the most obvious answer.

If my experiment with an outfield player produces a reflex variation without GK training, but his 'Keeper rating improves, then you have nailed it.

Thanks. :thup:

retired_elpata

Reflexes are just for keepers, even though all players have them listed. Its incase you retrain them to keepers, or want to know if a certain player might make a decent back up keeper or something.

retired_mdambros

Cheers Cleon!

In a way I'm disappoined the explanantion is so simple. It would have been good to have been able to influence reactions to breakdowns in play/loose balls etc. But I guess 'First Touch and technique' drive these.

retired_kjcurnyn

That's anticipation, surely?

Reactions is "When a ball is coming towards you at 100 mph, can you react in time to it?" IF the test answers "yes", we then see "Do you have the agility to reach it, given your current positioning?". If yes, again we say "Do you have the handling to catch it cleanly, plam it out, or will it slip through?"