retired_lisag545

That´s it. Totally agree. I play this game for a long time now, since Commodore Amiga and CM Italia. I guess it was in 92. What a great run it was.
Im honest, I like to play fast like andyafc, always did it. I always told that kind of friends that hate this type of games "u dont play", "u just see a bar", or "its too much info, were do I start". I just imagine if they start with FM2007...
I think sometimes we must change something in a game, but not that much. I saw some games loose their identity and their community due to some "evolutions". I thought sometimes in giving up, but I wont, its to many years. I just hope that SI listens.

retired_smileyb26

I strongly believe that the era of the super tactics is over. What SI has developed a monster of an AI that is sensitive enough to capitalise on any weakness of your super tactics and is even able to bypass whatever penalty there is when a team changes formation.

I spent the better part of last week reading the tactic bible threads (note the plural) and even printed them out so that I can read it when I commute from work. There are heaps of info in there and most of the time, those who excel at FM07 may have problems trying to express themselves that the pertinent information to help the “have-nots” are all missed in the sea of words.

I have nothing against Cleon, but while his Sheffield United project thread is popular and extremely impressive, he does little to reveal the tweaks he made to his team in response to the scouted reports or when he sees something in the commentary (he made the claim that he does not watch the match in 2D). That would have been the key to unlocking the mysteries of how to beat this powerful AI that SI created. It is precisely because of this that there are rumours out about how Cleon might have restarted his game when he loses. The lack of info and that little bit of guidance, in my opinion, are the biggest letdowns of these tactical “bible” threads because one has to plough through pages of (sometimes) badly written posts and oceans of words before trying to make things out.

Truth be told, FM07 is not a typical RTS or counter-strike-esque game where one can get a step-by-step approach of how to beat this “uber-monster” or where to locate this elusive treasure cave. Even if this game is likened to a chess game, there are so many parameters (unlike a simple board of 40 chess pieces on a set chess board with X number of squares), so many sliders, so many notches on the sliders and so on that it becomes extremely overwhelming. For someone who can ill-afford putting in 20-hour days to figure out how to beat this AI on this chessboard with seemingly limitless parameters, it becomes an exercise in frustration.

It would have helped if SI were to come up with a good tactical guide since they are the masters of this AI, but Vaughan’s hints guide threw up very little in-depth insights into the aspect of the game which single-handedly determines a win or a loss. With a considerable number of people struggling in this game and many who are no longer uni grads but people holding day jobs, it would have been a god-send if the people at SI were to throw out a comprehensive guide to beating the AI on tactics.

Even if SI were to be too engrossed with counting their money (yes, I have a gripe with them over the mad chairman thread in the Bugs forum), these “demi-gods” on the tactical section could do with a bit more guidance on the stuff they found, discovered or observed from their games. For example, what things would trigger in-game tweaks to the formation, how exactly will they tweak if the AI goes into a 4-5-1 formation, what do they do when they read about how a particular player has been winning headers in the game, how do they set up their defense when their team concede a free-kick outside the box, how could they tell if the AI is on short passing and fast tempo, or what about the keeper’s silly antics that led to a goal conceded?

One thing I have noticed is how most of the uber-tactics posted in this Tactics forum are tested using big teams like Chelski, ManYoo, Liverpool or Ajax. And no, wise cracks like “you suck at the game because you are silly” does little to make this place more harmonious, does it not?

In any case, I have started a new game after installing patch 7.0.2 with Fulham. I have tried a vast array of downloaded tactics from the popular CMAddict to wwfan’s Roomba. Here is what I have observed:

(a)You get initial success with the uber tactic in the first game or (if you are lucky) the first few games. After which, the AI gets a hang of how your team plays and counters it. Always by the fifth or sixth game, you get hammered by the AI (doesn’t matter if it is ManYoo or Southend).

(b)Despite all that SI claims, the AI does not seem to be playing with a penalty when changing its formation in the middle of a game from 4-4-2 to 4-2-2-2. Its players seem to adapt to the change so seamlessly that you wonder if this is a cheat or a smokescreen that SI threw at us.

(c)From what I have observed, the AI changes its formation many times in the game. I am very sure that the AI would have changed the sliders as many times during the game as well. Possibly when you put in 1,000 hours in the game by watching the game in full, you can suss out when the AI makes these changes.

In any case, using a combination of various downloaded tactics and bits of tweaks in game, I have improved Fulham’s position in the EPL from 12th (first season) to 9th (second season). The fact that I bought a 20-goal-a-season striker and improved on the defence (Christianval does not deserve to be in the EPL based on his stats) helped. I have always gone with 4-4-2 (in its various guises) because it is a popular formation used by managers in real life.

retired_kellyk

With all due respect, suggesting that someone is cheating with the game is ridiculous. We do have more insight into the game precisely because we've been playing it for a much longer time. Some of us have been involved in testing the engine out from "beta". Having gone through the process its not too difficult to figure out how to play the game.

Here are some observations I've made:

1. People who download tactics almost always struggle.

2. Does the AI keep changing tactics ever so often, I've watched the game on full highlights and yes it does, but is this a problem? It shouldn't be unless you've fundamentally made errors in the design of your tactic. Now if you have downloaded the tactic then I guarantee you that you'll struggle, cos you won't be able to figure out the "waterfall" effect of what you're doing.

3. Are people overcomplicating the game? Definitely yes. Fundamentally the game is simple, to illustrate this fact just pay attention to what some of the seasoned players are doing.

a. No ass manager team talks
b. Default training schedules with changes in intensity\
c. Using default tactics with changes some changes to tempo closing down and to set pieces.

There will be silly goals conceded, but that happens in real life too. Almost every week in the premiership you'll not find it hard to find a silly goal conceded.

But to suggest that someone is "restarting" his game so that it legitimises your inability to play this game is just asking for trouble

retired_smileyb26

rashidi1:

Point missed. If you read my post carefully, I said that the reason why these rumours have sprouted out is precisely because of the dearth of information offered by tactic "demi-gods". I have never discredited Cleon's claim about winning the EPL with Sheff Utd in his first season.

There was a time when I created a tactic from scratch with Juventus in Serie B. Won the Serie A a couple of times before I stopped because the mad chairman was selling 9 to 10 of my first XI.

Now, playing with Fulham, I didn't have the time and energy (after a long day at work) to sit down to create a tactic. I am trying out downloaded tactics to see how good they are and figure out what worked and what would not.

Thanks for the guarantee. If I were to compare to the likes of you and Cleon, of course finishing 9th with Fulham in my second season would equate to struggling. What would be immensely helpful will be a better definition of how to work around this "waterfall" effect. Nice analogy but the paucity of additional information and guidance (I am assuming that people who figured out this game would be helpful) remains.

a. I have team talks turned off and am considering a media blackout before games. That's what Cleon did in his Sheff Utd thread.

b. I am using Cleon's set of training schedules although I am contemplating tweaking them wholesale soon.

c. This to me is just a rough idea thrown out. It states the obvious but does not delve into details which would have been helpful and insightful.

Agree. I'll just have to suck my thumb. It happens.

Addressed earlier.

rashidi1, I am not being rude or pompous. I am just hoping that "demigods" of tactics such as yourself could give others a bit more insight into how you are tweaking your tactics. You don't have to post your tactics for downloads (that would have been a tad unhelpful actually) but a point-by-point, step-by-step approach would be of immense help.

retired_mgavlick

I strongly believe that the era of the super tactics is over. What SI has developed a monster of an AI that is sensitive enough to capitalise on any weakness of your super tactics and is even able to bypass whatever penalty there is when a team changes formation.

I spent the better part of last week reading the tactic bible threads (note the plural) and even printed them out so that I can read it when I commute from work. There are heaps of info in there and most of the time, those who excel at FM07 may have problems trying to express themselves that the pertinent information to help the “have-nots” are all missed in the sea of words.

You have an excellent point here and something that is incredibly hard to fix. I get frustrated when people ask mew questions about things I feel are fundamentally clear in my threads. However, you have to realise as a thread releaser that not every reader will read exactly what you expect them to. At the same time you are equally flummoxed by the sheer amount of information you have to cover to try and ensure no unforeseen problems come up. It is a next to impossible task, not withstanding the lack of natural communication ability us 'geeks' are renowned for.

I have nothing against Cleon, but while his Sheffield United project thread is popular and extremely impressive, he does little to reveal the tweaks he made to his team in response to the scouted reports or when he sees something in the commentary (he made the claim that he does not watch the match in 2D). That would have been the key to unlocking the mysteries of how to beat this powerful AI that SI created. It is precisely because of this that there are rumours out about how Cleon might have restarted his game when he loses. The lack of info and that little bit of guidance, in my opinion, are the biggest letdowns of these tactical “bible” threads because one has to plough through pages of (sometimes) badly written posts and oceans of words before trying to make things out.

Same as previously in terms of the difficulty in writing threads. I don't think the 'I don't need to see the match in 2D' to get things right is quite unhelpful. It taints a thread with uncalled for arrogance and is certainly not useful if the aim of the thread is 'teaching' less 'experienced' players how to play the game. Watching the 2D is vital in terms of seeing for yourself what is and what is not working. Cleon's approach to FM is, unlike mine, related to countering opposition tactics in that he tweaks his system pre-match to outwit the AI. I think it is a highly sophisticated way of doing things and am glad it works. However, and this is where I disagree strongly with Rashidi, it means the game is no longer simple. If you alter your tactics pre-match every match then by definition you are not being simple but complex, changing and rechanging systems based on a 'higher' understanding of the game. Rashidi's systems may be simple, and his method of closing down with the forwards is exemplary and should be part of every formation, but Cleon's certainly aren't and it does no favours to him or those trying to emulate him to suggest that they are.

Truth be told, FM07 is not a typical RTS or counter-strike-esque game where one can get a step-by-step approach of how to beat this “uber-monster” or where to locate this elusive treasure cave. Even if this game is likened to a chess game, there are so many parameters (unlike a simple board of 40 chess pieces on a set chess board with X number of squares), so many sliders, so many notches on the sliders and so on that it becomes extremely overwhelming. For someone who can ill-afford putting in 20-hour days to figure out how to beat this AI on this chessboard with seemingly limitless parameters, it becomes an exercise in frustration.

The argument that play is becoming more like work and visa versa fits nicely here. Frustrating it certainly is, and I for one would have struggled working it out if it weren't for the wealth of advice on this forum. There have been many posts that I have borrowed from, cannabalised and restructered when writing my own stuff and sorting through the good form the bad advice is a logisitic exercise in itself

It would have helped if SI were to come up with a good tactical guide since they are the masters of this AI, but Vaughan’s hints guide threw up very little in-depth insights into the aspect of the game which single-handedly determines a win or a loss. With a considerable number of people struggling in this game and many who are no longer uni grads but people holding day jobs, it would have been a god-send if the people at SI were to throw out a comprehensive guide to beating the AI on tactics.

The manual is better than before, but SI can't turn FM back into the 'win with numbers' sceanrios of the past. It would defeat the object they have been working so hard to achieve. Management is reflexive, ambiguous, paradoxical and frustrating and FM is beginning to reflect that nicely. If it weren't everybody would be a good manager in football or real work terms. Quite patently they are not. Arguably, SI haven't made FM ambiguous enough, but then again they probably shouldn't as it would shift the work/play battle further and further towards work

Even if SI were to be too engrossed with counting their money (yes, I have a gripe with them over the mad chairman thread in the Bugs forum), these “demi-gods” on the tactical section could do with a bit more guidance on the stuff they found, discovered or observed from their games. For example, what things would trigger in-game tweaks to the formation, how exactly will they tweak if the AI goes into a 4-5-1 formation, what do they do when they read about how a particular player has been winning headers in the game, how do they set up their defense when their team concede a free-kick outside the box, how could they tell if the AI is on short passing and fast tempo, or what about the keeper’s silly antics that led to a goal conceded?

Some of these are reasonably obvious, some require more thought. A manager's job is to reduce the errors whilst increasing the 'good' play. That is what we are all trying to do and to have SI telling us exactly how to do it would be somewhat counter-productive in terms of a management simulation.

One thing I have noticed is how most of the uber-tactics posted in this Tactics forum are tested using big teams like Chelski, ManYoo, Liverpool or Ajax. And no, wise cracks like “you suck at the game because you are silly” does little to make this place more harmonious, does it not?

I agree. Those that like to boast of their skill whilst being detrimental to others are less than useful members.

In any case, I have started a new game after installing patch 7.0.2 with Fulham. I have tried a vast array of downloaded tactics from the popular CMAddict to wwfan’s Roomba. Here is what I have observed:

(a)You get initial success with the uber tactic in the first game or (if you are lucky) the first few games. After which, the AI gets a hang of how your team plays and counters it. Always by the fifth or sixth game, you get hammered by the AI (doesn’t matter if it is ManYoo or Southend).

Relates to the pre-match odds which in FM07 are much more important than previously. If you do well for 5-6 games with a system you will begin to come up against more defensive AI systems and thus will have to tweak your own tactic to be more aggressive to keep on winning. If you have a poorish side and have been over-performing that can be very difficult to do as your defence probably won't be strong enough to work in a hugely attacking system. However, if you are Man Utd you should be able to counter it by picking and choosing when to be aggresive and when to be defensive.

(b)Despite all that SI claims, the AI does not seem to be playing with a penalty when changing its formation in the middle of a game from 4-4-2 to 4-2-2-2. Its players seem to adapt to the change so seamlessly that you wonder if this is a cheat or a smokescreen that SI threw at us.

The penalty of formation switching is a myth. Extreme changes will harm your team (i.e. switching from a d-line of 4 to a d-line of 16 in a low mentality system, but players getting confused is something I have never gone along with. Tactical sophistication is commonplace in today's game and SI would be foolish to penalise it heavily (if at all). Players adapting to each other/tactic after a transfer is fine, but getting confused between two well thought out tactical systems is another matter entirely. I think the tacical confusion belief is, like the mentality argument (individual overriding team (or not?), due to a poorly worded manual.

(c)From what I have observed, the AI changes its formation many times in the game. I am very sure that the AI would have changed the sliders as many times during the game as well. Possibly when you put in 1,000 hours in the game by watching the game in full, you can suss out when the AI makes these changes.

Half-time, after a goal, circa 70 mins are common, but it can happen at other times too. The best way to counter is to have a set of formation flavours you can switch to with a tactic change rather than messing around with sliders mid-game. The addition of the 'load a new tactic' option in the in-game quick tactic change in FM07 is not an accident.

In any case, using a combination of various downloaded tactics and bits of tweaks in game, I have improved Fulham’s position in the EPL from 12th (first season) to 9th (second season). The fact that I bought a 20-goal-a-season striker and improved on the defence (Christianval does not deserve to be in the EPL based on his stats) helped. I have always gone with 4-4-2 (in its various guises) because it is a popular formation used by managers in real life.


Rashidi's comments:

1. People who download tactics almost always struggle.

This is a sweeping statement and is undoubtedly not true. Fuss has 20000 downloads of his tactic, the majority of whom don't complain and learn how and when to switch things around. Likewise, my TT&F sets have 2,500, and they are complex, with only a few complainers that they don't work, most of whom can be helped out with a little constructive advice. You and I prefer to design our own systems and get our enjoyment out of doing that but to suggest that downloaders always struggle denigrates a way of playing FM that many follow and excel with.

2. Does the AI keep changing tactics ever so often, I've watched the game on full highlights and yes it does, but is this a problem? It shouldn't be unless you've fundamentally made errors in the design of your tactic. Now if you have downloaded the tactic then I guarantee you that you'll struggle, cos you won't be able to figure out the "waterfall" effect of what you're doing.

See above. Adapting a downloaded tactic for certain scenarios is a pretty standard way of playing FM and many have success doing this.

3. Are people overcomplicating the game? Definitely yes. Fundamentally the game is simple, to illustrate this fact just pay attention to what some of the seasoned players are doing.

a. No ass manager team talks
b. Default training schedules with changes in intensity
c. Using default tactics with changes some changes to tempo closing down and to set pieces

Some are doing this and have it working, but others prefer to enter a more complex world. I disagree with your argument that Cleon's systems are simple as he changes tatic instructions game in game out. FM is no longer simple or all will succeed equally well (as in the past). Its added complexity is what is causing pain and frustration. That said, I do think you are pretty close to the mark with the adapting default tactics, but fall short if you are considering the game-verse as a whole.

retired_kellyk

The inherent beauty in this game is the variety of ways the game can be played. Some prefer using a myraid of tactics across one season, others like me simply prefer using one tactic and sticking with it till boredom sets in.

Using one tactic doesn't mean that tweaks aren't needed. They are, a simple rule of thumb I follow is studying who I play before a match. If the players are better than my players then I expect the AI to come attacking me. Using Chelsea as an example would be good, as I've found that beating chelsea is always a challenge. My clubs invariably tend to be newly promoted sides.

When playing a really good team for example. I pay attention to several things:

1. Pace. If a side has really good pace against me, then I need to play with a reduced tempo, my team plays narrower, and I stick in really good ball winners in midfield, and I get my strikers to close down hard. At the back I keep closing down low, but I make sure that the defenders I have are good at anticipation, jumping and pace.

2. Upfront, I battle pace with pace, and sometimes even put a targetman upfront to win balls. Which is easier said than done. But one thing I really try to win are set pieces, and there are easy ways to do this. Against sides like chelsea, i need to win as many corners and freekicks as I can. To win corners, I'll give one my strikers usually the left FC in a 442, run with ball instructions, and cross ball often from bye instructions. Making sure he has good crossing is vital. What this does is to give me the chance of getting him into really dangerous positions, and with sides like chelsea, who might come attacking you leaving them open to counter attacks from open play and corners, this can be a real game winner.

Yes I do modify my tactic in game, but these are limited to sliders like width and tempo. I hardly touch anything else cos honestly you don't really need to do much.

I have gone into depth as to the way I design these tactics, there's even a thread on it where I put the template of the tactic and started explaining how to build a tactic.

What wwwfan is suggesting isn't too different from what I do, the difference lies in the fact that he creates separate tactics, and loads them in while I know what slider positions I want.

There are many ways to skin this cat, there are always going to be guys who love tweaking, others who hate it. You just need to find one style of play that you're comfortable with

retired_mgavlick

That I agree with. No one way of playing, but a requirement for some level of tactical sophistication.

retired_anitarobinson

With all due respect, suggesting that someone is cheating with the game is ridiculous. We do have more insight into the game precisely because we've been playing it for a much longer time. Some of us have been involved in testing the engine out from "beta". Having gone through the process its not too difficult to figure out how to play the game.

Here are some observations I've made:

1. People who download tactics almost always struggle.

2. Does the AI keep changing tactics ever so often, I've watched the game on full highlights and yes it does, but is this a problem? It shouldn't be unless you've fundamentally made errors in the design of your tactic. Now if you have downloaded the tactic then I guarantee you that you'll struggle, cos you won't be able to figure out the "waterfall" effect of what you're doing.

3. Are people overcomplicating the game? Definitely yes. Fundamentally the game is simple, to illustrate this fact just pay attention to what some of the seasoned players are doing.

a. No ass manager team talks
b. Default training schedules with changes in intensity\
c. Using default tactics with changes some changes to tempo closing down and to set pieces.

There will be silly goals conceded, but that happens in real life too. Almost every week in the premiership you'll not find it hard to find a silly goal conceded.

But to suggest that someone is "restarting" his game so that it legitimises your inability to play this game is just asking for trouble </BLOCKQUOTE>

i always thought you let the ass man do team talk rashidi, do you do your own these days?

i've noticed neither cleon or buxton uses them.

retired_traceyjo

really useful rashidi, thanks..

retired_HAdvocate

It does sound like there is a little appidemic that when people use a tactic that seems to be working, and then all of a sudden it crashes and you go on a long loosing streak or non winning streak. I know it has a lot to do with these factors:

#1 Team morality and team(& press) talk. It's very difficult to do this right, and just guessing, I would assume that many have done the same mistake as I and thought that one always has to comment in the press and put more work into it than nessasary. Let's say that you loose that odd weird game and say you are dissapointed.... then next match you get another bad result and you decide to give the team a good yellin'. Now sometimes this is enough to change your luck, but if it hasn't and you loose your next match I found that saying nothing after and under the match can save the team from a collective crash. Limited team and press talk I find is more profitable and only useing them when a change is really needed. Getting a good Assistant Manager to do the dirty work is recomended, although I would suggest that once in a while take away the Ass.Man team talk option and do a little work to balance things out. Also to combat low team morality a mid week friendly agaisnt a weak side could help. Also to some extent player interaction. You have to keep Morality high to be fully dominating, it's essential.

#2 Re-ranking and Player Ability. As wwwfan pointed out, re-ranking occurs after 5-6 games because you will notice when looking at your fixtures you will only see match odds for the next month. So when you over perform after a month (5-6 games circa) your opponents play more deffensively and this is where your players abilities really start becoming a major factor. They overide thier deffense causing your offense diffuculties you didn't experience when your opponent was playing a loose offensive style trying to beat you because they thought they had a chance at it. Players abilities are more "defined" in this version. I mean that there are huge diffences in players ability and just by glancing at thier stats not always tells the full story. You need specific players with certain strenths in the right places to be fully effective and not just have a bunch of players with good stats. Age of players are also a factor in long term consistancy. Only young Wonderboys are consistent where others take their time adapting and swing around in the process. In FM07 hints gives a good idea of which stats to look for (and ages for peaking players), but I feel we too many times compensate with something else that looks exciting than a solid purchess.

You can also include things like choosing the right tactics on the day and weather effects. Seeing as the guy who wrote this post lost an unbelieveable match, you could also include freak accidents, but let´s remember it´s a game and weirder things can and have happened. It´s taken me a while to get these things right and I'm not saying I never loose, and I do experience annoying results but they're getting less especially now that I'm looking at players abilities much more seriously than before and I relise now it's good to sell some good players to get better players. All teams have thier peaking points. If I have 2-3 really good seasons useing a consistent team, somewhere along the way there are players who don't cut it or fade away, and it's about spotting them a changing. Giving a little time and thought I win more than I lose and all around it somehow feels more realistic and challenging. Having a slump or a bad season has never got me down because things can turn around, you can still lose 7-8 matches and still be Champions...