Amaroq

Dagnabbit! I was going for arrogant and patronising! I'll have to work harder!

That's why I've been arguing so passionately for the past two years in favor of improved feedback from our assistant, specifically in regards to helping guide us through the tactical morass. Not everybody has the time, and casual gamers are going to be alienated by not having success and not having a clue how to fix it .. and there are plenty of people who could learn football strategy from the game - youth, Americans, whomever - but instead are left with "trial and error" as the only approach.

I don't want you to think that was the main thrust of my post; it was the most readily-graspable example that came to mind.

An FM'07 tactic may not have relied on exploiting a flaw in the match engine, but it may not be suited to one or more of the match-engine changes.

For example, let's say the FM'08 engine has increased the amount of uncontrolled passes and headers, and the amount by which they are off-target.

If an FM'07 tactic spread its players out too much, relying on the accuracy of passing and heading to maintain possession and drag the defense out of position .. in an '08 match, that same strategy might be costing that tactic, as the opposition might have players closer to those fifty-fifty balls, and thus might be winning more possession .. while passes misdirected for its "wide" players might be going out of bounds when they didn't used to, again gifting the opposition possession.

Alternately, say the FM'08 engine consumes player's Condition more. A tactic which was defensively solid for ninety minutes in '07 might falter in the final twenty minutes of an '08 match simply because the players were more fatigued.

(Again, examples only - I picked two things I've observed about the '08 engine, personally, but I can't say for sure whether they're related to your problems at all.)

Its subtle things like that - even if your tactic didn't exploit a specific flaw, there may have been changes to the engine which result in a reduction in its efficiency, which, when multiplied out over 90 minutes times 40 matches, turns into a very large "edge" for the AI (comparitively).

Thanks, mate.

sm1979

Cheers Amaroq, I understand more now of the direction you were coming from.

I'm just p*55ed off that my winning ways of 07 haven't passed onto 08

Thanks again mate :thup:

Amaroq

:thup:, and I think what you're experiencing is a natural reaction, for two reasons.

To some extent, we all get "used to" the success we had on previous versions, especially if we've moved from say an all-conquering European Champions squad (even if it is one we built up from the lower leagues); shifting from that to mid-table obscurity is a shock, and frustrating because we're experiencing less success than our internal evaluation of our skills says "we deserve".

Second, because its natural to think that we've "solved" it - for example, you see a lot of people saying "I'm not doing X in team talks, because it didn't work in '07." Is there any proof that it doesn't work in '08? No - but we retain this map which says "There be dragons!" because we think we've "solved" team talks in '07, rather than thinking of them as a new problem to be solved (again!) in '08.

Unfortunately, that can be like banging your head against a brick wall - that's why you see people who say "I've had the same thing happen to me on three save games this version, it must be a bug." Well, either its a bug, or its a habit that they have - e.g., always doing the same thing with team talks, with training, with pre-season training, tactically, team-selection, etc - and the habit is what's breeding their frustration. Unfortunately, its a blind spot (for most people, IRL); its very very difficult for us to see what our "assumptions" are.

Anyways, I empathize, certainly - and wish you luck in overcoming your frustrations.

sm1979

Well mate, as I sign off for the night I thought after your encouragement you deserved to know my final experiences of the night. I have said balls to 4-4-2, and now reverted to a formation that served me well on FM05(!!), the 4-3-2-1 xmas tree! Unfortunately I left it til transfer deadline day to go with this system, so didn't have chance to bring in players who will fit the system (although I have brought in a sweeper, as that is something I may try if things go pear-shaped). Since reverting to this new formation we have had a couple of interesting performances. The first was against Toulouse who had played 4 won 4 before meeting me. They had too many chances for my liking, but I was trying a couple of new things - but we won 1-0! Then onto a game away against a good Lille side. We went 1-0 down just before half time, but had played well and created lots of attacking opportunities. 2nd half we came out with an even more attacking mentality (1st half it was mainly on the counter). The attempts were coming aplenty, and we got our just rewards when the equaliser came. Unfortunately we couldn't find a winner, but the fans were really happy with the performance (judging by the match confidence bar being around three quarters full).

So thats it mate, just thought i'd let you know how things have gone since your words of encouragement.

Cheers again mate, you're a star, and a gent :thup:

Amaroq

Nice! Glad to hear it - and may more results follow as your players get more comfortable with the new formation!

I've been thinking that this engine reminds me somewhat of '05. I'd been thinking of reviving my 4-5-1 from '05 - flat four, DMC, ML/MR, AMC/AMC, ST, pretty similar to the Christmas tree really.

Cheers, thank you, and you're welcome.

aaberdeenn

Some excellent posts in here Roqy. :thup:

Melody, Rhyme and Rhythm

Due to complex random tactics I too have stopped playing FM which is a first in about 10 year.

So today I went outside and found a garden at my house and spent the day in it, it was great.

Thanks SI for giving me my life back.

Xennaz

I miss the Diablo tactic.

Scatter

that'd be a fine argument if the match engine showed any coherent signs of actually reflecting your tactical decisions. it patently doesn't.

sunn03

I have had similar problems in FM2008 but I have found that being creative in making your own tactics pays off.

The preset tactics are more or less rubbish so I have created my own tactics called 5-1-2-2. When defending I got 3 central defenders, 2 wing backs, 1 defensive midfielder, 2 central midfielders and 2 forwards. When I acctack however the two wing backs moves up to become offensive wingers.

It works for me - but it has taken some time to create it and make it efficient... Thus my conclusion is the game rewards you for being creative - just like IRL.