When can we expect better graphics (match engine)????

KryptonSean · 11-09-2007, 08:44 PM

I can't see SI working on a 3D match engine until the 2D one is perfect. Occaisionally you get shots that are heading straiht, then turn 90 degrees in front of your keeper, move just out of his reach and turn again towards the goal. They don't happen very often, but until the 2D match engine is perfect, I hope no-one at SI even thinks about 3D or isometric.

retired_randitruax · 11-12-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sjm:
The "better graphics match engine debate" is old hat.

Shamelessly plagiarised from my own posts from a few years ago:

On 3D:

The purpose of the match engine is to provide an overview of the tactical settings and action on the pitch. The best way to do this is a top down blimp view. It's not a question of prettiness, it's a qestion of utility.

With the top-down view, you can see the position of every player at every moment of the game, providing you with an overview of both your defensive and offensive shape. Now I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people banging on about 3D are those that simply watch the ball during a match. But that is actually missing the point (both of the 2D match and of being a football manager).

As a manager, you need to be paying attention to what your players are doing when they are nowhere near the ball. You can't do this if only part of the pitch is displayed (which 3D invariably would have to do, otherwise it would be no different from the current view). That in effect means that with 3D you are actually detracting from the purpose of the match engine.

Now that's not to say that a 3D replay of goals wouldn't be sexy - it probably would be. But it's nothing more than eye candy. A lot of people would watch the 3D for a week or two, and then they'd get tired of the novelty effect, and switch back to 2D (or even text commentary). They'd do this because 3D actually is detrimental to analysing your team's play. 99% of the time the 3D would be little more than "pretty", and of little actual "benefit" when it comes to being a football manager (the point of the game).

In fact, I'd personally much rather watch footie on TV from the blimp view than the side view. It's much more interesting, because you can see the effect of a team's tactics on the shape of the entire team. You can see players creating openings by going nowhere near the ball - something that you normally miss when watching TV. You can't see all these things with a limited scope of vision. Sure it's "prettier", but it's for the fans - not for the manager and people interested in the tactical side of the game!

On isometric:

The biggest advantage offer by 3D/isometric views (or 2D view from the side) is that they look good, but that's about it. The reason that FM's match engine works reasonably well is because it's 2D, which ensures you get an uncluttered view of the full pitch. It's the best way to use the space available on the screen, as the pitch is shaped similarly to a monitor (rectangular). The minute you rotate it the 30 degrees in iso you lose half of the screen area required by the pitch to display the areas not on the pitch but required by the gemoetric properties of an isometric pitch:

in graphical terms:
pitch (2D)
|==|
pitch (3D)
..__
././
/./

for a better idea of what I mean look at this:
2D:
http://s2.enemy.org/~sjm/pics/pitch2d.gif

3D:
http://s2.enemy.org/~sjm/pics/pitchiso.GIF

note how the iso pitch is the same "size" but leaves loads of the screen unused - effectively cramping everything unnecessarily.

The same holds true for true 3D - sure, it would be *fun* to zoom the view to behind your own goal and watch the match from there, but after trying it out 5 times, you'll go back to the blimp view.

Arcade football games can get away with fancy graphics and restricted views, as you generally don't need to know where all your players are at the same time and you cannot generally influence their behaviour that much. In FM you really need to see where your players are positioned, which is by far the easiest with a 2D view from the top. Even on Pro Evo I prefer playing with the furtherst zoom level, sacrificing graphical niceties for playability.

So, whilst it would be *nice* to be able to watch fantastic goals in replays in glorious 3D technicolour, it's not much more than that. Hardly worth bothering to program and debug a more complicated graphical representation when there are enough problems with 2D. I think that in practice you'll just end up as frustrated as I and others have been with games that try to focus on pretty graphics over visual clarity and gameplay (i.e. the entire FIFA series and numerous other manager games). Tbh, if that's what you want, FM probably ain't for you. At it's core it's just a glorified spreadsheet/database and makes little pretence at much else Smile If you want players that look like they do on TV rather than tactical immersion, play FIFA... let SI concentrate on those aspects of the game that they have always been better at than the competition (fun, gameplay, longevity, tactical immersion, a relatively accurate simulation of football).

In 10 years when PCs have the processor power we might see a 3D engine that allows you to watch from wherever you like and zoom rotate the camera etc. but don't hold your breath!

Yes i understand the problems you've highlighted but the fact of the matter is that change will come eventually, why not at least start looking into it now? No one is saying that it should be implemented for the next release of FM but it should at least be considered. At the end of the day none of us here can see the future, you highlight all the potential problems with an isometric pitch but what about the benefits?
This is always the case with everything in life, people are simply afraid of change. It wasn't too long ago that people still preferred to send messages by post rather than e-mail!

Yes the current match engine is adequate. It's safe, efficient, gets the job done. However personally i don't want to be saying this 10 years or so down the line. The game needs to evolve further. Such a simple addition could add so much to the game if done properly, it'd be like a breath of fresh air to the series.

I'm not saying to go ahead with a full blown 3D engine but at least start to consider SOME changes. The current format is fast becoming outdated. However, slowly does it of course...

retired_amy1987tuma · 11-12-2007, 01:03 PM

For what it's worth, I disagree that this game needs 3D.

Watching a player make cool moves in 3D should not really change your impression of the players because you already know he has flair and technique.
The game is so much better because you can use your imagination while watching the game.

The cost to implement a 3D graphics engine would be enormous, both in development and hardware requirements. The simulation is already doing ALOT of calculations, combine that with 3D graphics and you'll suddenly get a game only the top of the line PC can play.

I personally think this 2D engine is fine. I saw that screenshot of the isometric pitch and to be honest, I can't see what value that adds.

The one suggestion I have is to stop asking us whether or not it is a foul post-match. We have no clue. I cannot tell whether a circle fouled another circle. Please quit pointing out your weakness. That is the one and only thing I dislike about the graphics.

I know a 3D engine might fix that, but at the extra cost, I rather SI concentrate on the simulation engine rather than waste time/resource/effort to implement 3D graphics.

Like they say in business, focus on the core competencies.

retired_cw85260 · 11-12-2007, 01:14 PM

3D?

don't you think they should wait until the game actually works properly in 2D?

retired_PantherFantasy · 11-12-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

I've haven't actually played the recent versions of CM (since FM broke away) but i know it boasted a "tilted" pitch that allowed you to see the dynamics of the football (i.e. the height of crosses etc.)
Something such as this should definately be the next step forward for FM. It would certainly add to the element of realism that SI continually strive for and would be much easier to implement than a full blown 3D match engine. The format will have to change at some point, why not start now?

That would be great. The we could see if balls going in and through at shoulder height, jumping height or to feet.

Unless its done well and the technology isnt there yet imo FM should remain in 2D.

retired_randitruax · 11-12-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jibsa:
<BLOCKQUOTE>I've haven't actually played the recent versions of CM (since FM broke away) but i know it boasted a "tilted" pitch that allowed you to see the dynamics of the football (i.e. the height of crosses etc.)
Something such as this should definately be the next step forward for FM. It would certainly add to the element of realism that SI continually strive for and would be much easier to implement than a full blown 3D match engine. The format will have to change at some point, why not start now?

That would be great. The we could see if balls going in and through at shoulder height, jumping height or to feet.

Unless its done well and the technology isnt there yet imo FM should remain in 2D. </BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly. These should at least be considered

hokey71 · 11-12-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by black 'n amber tiger:
It shouldn't be a choice between 2d & 3D, The match engine can improve with out making it to high spec. look at Sensible Soccer from the 90's that had a better degree of what was happening then we have now. And if that was poss on the Amiga then it must be possible todday on even the lowest spec pc???

Despite being a great game sensible soccers match engine was totally unrealistic. There was two types of tackle, 2 ways of kicking the ball and one type of header! Stick with the current match engine - its a totally realistic REPRESENTATION of what is going on in the match. Any attempt at showing 'real' footage would lose all realism.

retired_zarinahh · 11-12-2007, 06:46 PM

Briljant suggestion. If not feasable, the graphics from FM trivia site will do just fine as well :-)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Ash:
I would like to see Sensible Soccer type engine and have the option for 2d for people who do not like it.

retired_jenlivesay · 11-12-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

What exactly would a 3D match engine add which isn't already there?

Exactly. It is just that some people can't be bothered to look at the stats unfortunatly.

The 2D Engine to me is fine, and these have been mentioned already but it would affect loading times etc and you can see ALL that is happening on the 2D engine.

It is fine please - leave it be...

retired_randitruax · 11-13-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by loadajollocks:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by black 'n amber tiger:
It shouldn't be a choice between 2d & 3D, The match engine can improve with out making it to high spec. look at Sensible Soccer from the 90's that had a better degree of what was happening then we have now. And if that was poss on the Amiga then it must be possible todday on even the lowest spec pc???

Despite being a great game sensible soccers match engine was totally unrealistic. There was two types of tackle, 2 ways of kicking the ball and one type of header! Stick with the current match engine - its a totally realistic REPRESENTATION of what is going on in the match. Any attempt at showing 'real' footage would lose all realism. </BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point, we're not suggesting the games has top of the range graphics. The same dotted representations of players could remain, however if the pitch was "tilted" slightly you can not say that it would improve the managing experience.

Seeing the balls dynamics for yourself would allow you to asses what is going on alot more easily. (i.e. whether a particular passing style is working, whether your wingers crosses are being drilled in or floated over, how well your defenders/target man are coping with aerial balls. There are numerous benfits.) And for those that say it would have an adverse effect due to the spec requirements, doesn't CM currently uses a similar match engine? Im guessing it hasn't vastly effected them as they still seem to sell pretty well.

It's not as bad an idea as you think. Besides why would you want the same old boring design for every single game. The game has to make some progress and evolve slightly. Its about time really. We've had pretty much the same game for the last three years or so, in terms of overall design. Theres only been a few aesthetic enhancements over the years and quite frankly it is beggining to get a little bit stale

When can we expect better graphics (match engine)????

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When can we expect better graphics (match engine)????