424 .. what a joke ..

retired_roslynl · 05-09-2007, 09:01 PM

Quote:

424

A 424 is terrible.

Can you imagine Alex playing a 424 against Chelsea?

Chelsea would dominate the midfield and win the match comfortably.

retired_lzeldin · 05-11-2007, 10:01 AM

I have had interesting time with Chelsea. Patch 7.0.2 and results and tactics are like you see on screenshots:

Only one loss so far, be it CL, Cup or EPL. Currently running 9-game undefeated streak in EPL, 2 ties, 1 lost.

I know it's only start of season, but I have also been running without some major players. Robben, J.Cole, Lampard all got major injuries either in friendies or in couple of matches to EPL. Lampard is stil out for 3-4 weeks.

Tactics I have been using are same I used in CM 03/04, simple attacking 4-5-1.

Team instructions are:

Interesting thing is... NONE of my opponents have changed to 4-2-4 against my team so far. When I play Liverpool with my 4-4-2, I tend to get lot "4-2-4"-changes. Not yet had one in this game. It's early season still, but I wonder if "midfield domination" may prevent AI to switch to 4-2-4 ?

retired_B-Scott · 05-11-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Interesting thing is... NONE of my opponents have changed to 4-2-4 against my team so far. When I play Liverpool with my 4-4-2, I tend to get lot "4-2-4"-changes. Not yet had one in this game. It's early season still, but I wonder if "midfield domination" may prevent AI to switch to 4-2-4 ?

Yes thats intersting because the AI seems to have almost entirely given up his 424 attack agains tme this season, although Im playing a 4312 and a 451 also.

Im am in the year 2027/28 season is that has any bearing on it.

retired_lzeldin · 05-11-2007, 10:50 AM

One thing is funny again...and I remember it from CM03/04...last CM/FM I played before this.

AI behaviour:

It seems to be that when you play in formation that AI cannot easily counter with "4-2-4" or other tactical formations it has been programmed to adapt, next step is to mass-injure your players in game.

If that doesn't work due to you having wide base of replacements for positions, watch for increase in red/yellow cards your team.

I work for online betting company with responsibility to figure out anomalities for Risk/Fraud assesment..and I'm very good in spotting anomalities out of normal behaviour. I don't have any inclination or time to run huge number of tests lasting seasons..this is just a game for recreation and just my observations from *my* games. Your mileage may vary.

And yes..answer is: "it's your tactics, fool"...

:cool:

retired_B-Scott · 05-11-2007, 11:01 AM

Thats interesting Sardukar - the supposed variations in the match engine and anomolies such as reranking etc should be right up your street.

Everyone seems to think they know the answer which is funny, because they all have different answers.

With your expert eye, do you think some matches are 'scripted' so you inevtiably lose or perhaps come close to losing - can you have a look at the screenshotin the 2nd post (its a thumbnail on its own, nottm forest v gillinham) and let me know what you think of that?

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/forums/i...0&gopid=69884&

cheers socks

ps I used to be a graphic designer for an insurance firm in the city and worked with some forensic investigators, man those guys can sniff out a lie at a hundred yards!

I am told by ex colleagues, Did insurance companies handling claims they are currently introducing lie detectors to screen all calls now? Forget about saying that walkman you dropped in the bath got taken off the beach! Theyre onto you!

retired_lzeldin · 05-11-2007, 12:20 PM

Yep.

It's your "Shots on Target", 19 with one goal. To my experience with CM up to 03/04 (got fed up and took a break until FM07) and with FM 07, "supergoalie" is still alive and kicking. Those saves are for Ice Hockey, not for Football. Not sure if SiGames mixed FM goalies with Eastside Hockey Manager sometimes.. :thdn:

Forum threads about it just tends to get shut down by moderators...

I see the phenomena now and then..and it's very annoying..taking away the "suspension of disbelief". In CM 03/04 I used to see double and triple saves from opposition goalies against same attacks quite regular bases. Against "world class players"..done by *any* goalkeeper in game. Seen many games even in FM07, when opposition GK saves over 10 shots that are all shot within penalty box.

It is among tendencies of AI trying to make game more "challenging" to player, I guess. Bad idea, I'd say.

Some of my grievances with CM03/04 were: supergoalies (I am statistically *sure* about this in CM03/04), injuries (when winning a lot..could lose *lot* of players in 2 games), red/yellow cards(when winning a lot) and sudden loss of player abilities in middle of the game (suddenly your players just played like they just lost 10 from all of abilities..all of them)

Compared to CM03/04, FM07 has:

Supergoalies: toned down, but still existing

Injury excess: not yet sure, but toned down a bit, seems to switch on when AI cannot play 4-2-4

Red/Yellow card excess: not seen yet, might switch on if your team is still doing well...

Sudden ability loss in middle of game: not seen yet

Bottom line, AI 4-2-4 is not the major problem in game (even though it can be when playing some tactics), it seems to be triggered on by certain conditions...thus can be avoided.

Problems do not exist in Tactics-section of CM/FM, they exist in match engine and AI programming.

That has made me skip couple of games in series after CM03/04. Most likely next FM I'll buy will be FM2010 since advances in those areas most concerning to me have been painfully slow. FM is just a game, even though many want it to be simulator. When unreal $hit happens in game, I just quit and play something else or just restart.

retired_B-Scott · 05-11-2007, 01:39 PM

Yeah the goalie thing is certainly there, only in certain matches.

This sort of anomily did bother me for a while but now I accept it as part of the game. Its quite fun seeing how many times 'he just his fingertips to that one' or 'skimmed the top of the bar'

I do find it amusing when people will tellother usedrs who have notived this that there arent super keepers, without having seen their games.

People arent short of opinions here and everyone seems to know an awful lot about football and seems always sure they are right, when they are in actual fact just repeating trueisms, or telling users its their own tactical inadequacies, which I think is a shame when people are simply looking for help.

retired_el_chanclas · 05-11-2007, 04:03 PM

Well. I forgot to post how I did.

We made the playoff finals in 6th, and lost 4-3 in the semi.

retired_anitarobinson · 05-11-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thunda:
Although I started this thread on the 4-2-4 - I think the problem runs a lot deeper than that but the 4-2-4 is just the extreme end of it.

Its basically when the AI needs a goal or goes on the offensive where the problem lies.

I can take a fairly mid level team to Man Utd with a defensive mind-set and if Man Utd play "normal" (which is still usually better than most teams All-Out attack), my team can perform quite well and usually limit them to 0 or 1 goal.

Yet take that team with the same solid defensive set up to the ground of a team at the bottom of the table you find yourself 2-0 down in 15 minutes because they start the game "with an offensive style of play" and are playing like Brazil.

The problem with FM is that one notch on a slider can make such a huge difference to how a team plays. Fortunately for the AI, it has pre-made tactics that have no doubt been run a million and one times through simulations to find what works best against what, to call upon at a whim .. sadly we dont.

I don't have a problem with teams attacking like headless chickens - but thats the point - they are running around like headless chickens ..

.. but those pre-made tactics ran through simulations unfortunately also find the very best balance between attack and defence - so they can run around like headless chickens (find a goal when they need one despite being dominated to hell for 85 minutes) and still have a defence as solid as the famed italians in the early 90's.

Again - if they were that good - what are they doing at the bottom of the league?

Too many intances reported by people suggest theres problems in the match engine and tactics ..

I've just played a game where again I've battered a team for 80 minutes - had 25 shots on goal, 18 on target, scored 1 goal and the opposition has 1-0-0 ... they switch to 4-2-4 (and despite me turning to my tactic to use against 4-2-4) and by the 90th minute they're had 8 shots, 3 on target and I've lost 3-1 .. (despite me having better strikers, better defenders and a much better keeper).

Funny tho - one of those goals was so far off-side it wasn't even close enough for the commentary to suggest it was close. It was just given - no questions asked - I couldn't even whinge about it after the game after I'd looked at it again 15 times to make sure something ridiculous hadn't happenned. 5 Yards offside - when the AI needs a goal - just given, without question .. smells a bit fishy ..

It really is pathetic at times ... yet we keep getting told "its your tactics you idiot" ..

80 minutes gone - 25 shots on goal, 18 on target (most one-on-ones) - nothing wrong with the tactics in that part yet can't score for jelly. Every manager in league would take that.

.. yet time and time again you get pegged back when they go 4-2-4 ..

And this is where the idea of "super-keeper" comes into it with people.

Apparently it doesn't exist - yet you sit and watch Gordon Banks/Peter Shilton/Petr Cech all rolled into one flinging himself about saving everything thats thrown at him and only conceding 1 goal in 18 on target - think in that game it was an own goal too - (despite him being the reserve keeper with a CA around 100 when you check afterwards) - yet your 174 rated keeper who is one of the best in the business has 3 shots to deal with and he just watches them go into the net.

.. makes you wonder why you bother playing a keeper in FM a lot of the times for all the good he did - might as well play an extra striker.

But the "superkeeper" isn't a specific thing - its just a general symptom of the over-riding problem. The AI needs to keep the score down or needs to get a goal - bingo, at your service sir ..

Whether its 'cheating' or a complete inbalance in the way the AI tactics are set up - there are too many times when the human player is at a disadvantage with it and feels cheated anyway.

Anyway, another rant over .. but to finish, people don't complain about these things because they want to win every game - they complain because they want the game to be realistic ..

A fat pub team turning into classic Brazil when they need a goal is not realistic and just causes frustration with people who start to believe they are being cheated and the results pre-determined .. some people see that as a challenge and fair enough - but sadly, as said, its not realistic.

some well written valid points there, i've had plenty of games where i've been very comfortable, limiting the AI to about 3 efforts, none on target and am 2-0, 3-0 up, then am left clinging by my fingernails as the AI goes 4-2-4 and its like facing total football. The tables are turned instantly and i've finished a lot of games 2-2 after the late battering.

retired_el_chanclas · 05-11-2007, 05:14 PM

I just had a game where:

Supergoalies: Their keeper saved 9 shots on target, including one double save where he jumped one direction, then saved the rebound on the other direction, rated 8.

Injury excess: Had 2 players injured.

Red/Yellow card excess: Player sent off.

Sudden ability loss in middle of game: Had my striker make 5 shots on target but unable to put any in the net.

We made 15 shots to 5, despite having a player sent off, and only drew 1-1.

424 .. what a joke ..

It's no use having a squad full of star players without a decent way for them to play their football.

424 .. what a joke ..