retired_venomm

Hi kolobok

Nice idea on the tempo, I hadn't considered doing a team average for this - in theory it should be a good way of caculating it! Passing style and tempo are usually linked but maybe passing style of players should be more individual, such as crowded areas like in the middle of the field would require short accurate passing due to the lack of space, defense maybe playing a slightly longer ball to get it from the back line to the midfield etc. This is basically just info I gathered from wwfans theory thread I linked in the first post really.

About my Messina save, I haven't got very far into it yet to be honest - I had to do a full format of my computer so I just haven't got around to it yet, I am currently 2 games into Seria A I think, drawn one and won one, dominating possesion in both. I am keeping more more detailed match stats from this version though, and doing it as I go along rather than at once at the end (which was tedius and time consuming) so hopefully I can start getting into that a bit more now my computer is all sorted out, will keep the thread updated when I have something to show for it

hdsegal

So far with my Man Utd., very nice tactic. I made the passing short and my sliders look exactly like wwfan's original ROO tactics. I am thinking about playing a short passing, quick tempo, but I really can't argue with the results I've been getting. KUTGW!

Thanks as well to kolobok!!! great work mate.

retired_mrsangela

How dou calculate the passing and closing down for each player ?

retired_cooliomydear

Hi guys,

I did a short season to try out some of the ideas suggested here. First I decided which values to take for the different individual settings and I came up with the following:

<b>Frd runs</b> accpaceant
<b>runwb</b> dribfiracc
<b>long</b>declongcmp
<b>trough</b>deccreapas
<b>cross</b>crossdeccrea

<b>Cldwn</B>posstatack
<b>passing</B>pasdeccmp
<b>crea</B>creadeccmp

based on the average of the opponents
<b>anti crea</b>antposcnt
<b>anti pass</b>stapostac
<b>anti closs</b>pasdeccmp


As you can see I limited the averages to 3, and I added some "counterstats" or "antistats "from the next opponent. I choose the worst rated team in the Dutch second division, omniworld, and a standard 442 formation, to try out this system.

A first calculation showed results that made sense. Wingers with high runwithball,crossing and MC's with high troughball values.

Not surprisingly I found defenders with high closing down values, something I would not do when playing "on gut-feeling". I did use it anyway.

The closing down, creativity and positioning values were corrected by the anti-values. So if a player had a closing down of 13, but the average anti-closing of the opponent was 12, I set the slider to +1, where 0 is the middle. The 3-value sliders where set according to Paulgruffs limit <10 rarely, >15 often. To compensate for second league I adjusted this setting to <9 rarely, >14 often.


For passing I used the inverse of this system, because I prefer a bad passer to loft the ball high and far from the goal, to prevent dangerous interceptions. So player with high passing skills pass short, will others pass more direct. This is reflected in the choice for dec and cmp in the passing skill.

Tempo and width were set according to the average passing values, as is discussed in many other threads in this forum. Mentality... well I had the worst team so was always expecting too lose. This slider was always on defending (4) and not tweaked individually.

After a few games I stopped because I could see a few things that "did not compute" .
The <9 rarely setting seemed to be too strict. Forwards were prevented from crossing too players with better positions, fullbacks not coming forward etc. So in the last few games I used <4 for rarely, with better results. another thing to start over is that I made a few bad decisions on picking the best players.

On the good side, the system showed balanced settings for the team. The high closing down for defence worked well, the defenders dominated the forwards in an satisfying way. Some players really surprised me, getting high ratings and playing well. I lost most games to freekicks and and a bad looking keeper which might be caused by the high closing down of the defence. And last but not least, my team scored more than anticipated.

For the next run I will use the findings of this run. But there are things that need to be addressed:
1) Keepers: closing down settings, creativity settings, still no idea
2) tempo: i will try koboloks system
3) winterblues : will this system hold up during the infamous winterblues...

retired_janay731

paulsgruff, if you don´t mind i´ll add my insight about passing style based on players stats.

Passing style vs stats

I bring this topic to discussion because individual instructions like mentality and passing highly influences way team play. I really like your approach altough made two important conclusions:

- all mathematical considerations could sugest that some player got slider between 16-20 -> often. Suppose, for example, an AM C have high stats that indicate as following:

Forward Runs - mixed
Runs With Ball - often
Long Shots - often
Through Balls - often
Cross Ball - rare

If player have low decisions attribute (<12/10) it cab be confusing. In this case, what movement should player decide? Run with ball, dribbling? Or try through pass for a striker? Finally, he can try long shots because all 3 individual instructions are set to oten.

In my opinion, in these 5 individual instructions we only must set 2 of them to often, even mathematical calculations said contrary.

Another conclusion is related to attributes choosen for Forward Runs: pace, acceleration, stamina, work rate, off the ball. I tested with my Atletico Madrid team and results indicate FRW often for my LB/RB and mixed for central defenders. As we all know, it can be dangerous assume this because you don´t want to give space backyard. I suggest changing some attributes in the equacion or instead consider like this: (<12 rare; 13-15 mixed; 16-20 often). In conclusion, i will add dribbling ability instead of work rate and maybe add agility stats, performing 6 variables.

Cheers

retired_venomm

So far I have been setting these as a team mentality rather than individual - closing down and passing I always start bang in the middle of the sliders on team settings then adjust to suit how the game is going, for example if I am winning 1-0 with 10 minutes to go, I will increase closing down to give the opponents less time and space. Passing I set to whatever seems to work really, it's a trial and error thing with my approach - however alot of people seem to have got into this and are suggesting ways which this could be figured out which is fantastic!

I like the idea of players with poor passing ability to just smack the ball as far upfield as possible, that's a nice approach and should in theory keep the pressure off alot better, but in turn will probably won't decrease the amount of times you give the ball away, it will just be in a safer position much further up the pitch, nice approach!

About keepers, I just always left their player instructions on default so they can make their own decisions really. Naturally I try and find a well ballanced goalkeeper (if I don't have one already) and hope that his judgement is ok - mainly because I'm not totally sure how keepers react to player instructions yet in comparison to outfield players.

Let me know how it works out with only using 3 main attributes to figure out the position of your sliders - the reason I went for as many as possible that I felt related to that area was because I wanted a solid average. In reality it is really starting to seem that some minor things could be dragging the average down a fair bit based on one poor attribute (say 'decisions' could really affect the through balls slider - when you could have a player that is more flair/instinct based who could be the best through ball player ever).

Interesting, I'd be interested to know how this works out if you get a player that has often in many areas (mostly to see how the game engine actually decides to impliment it - if it favours one of the sliders more so than others for example).

Although I can understand what you mean about the player maybe not picking the best option, to me it also seems that the player could become a nightmare for the opposition based purely on unpredictability. If he has the ability to try 3-5 different things, rather than a player with only one setting on often, then surely that's a bonus rather than a drawback - a bit like Paul Scholes in real life - great at holding up play, short passes, creative play in and around the box, long shots and also getting in the box to score close range goals. If you have a player that can do so many different things well personally I would leave it to his decisions attribute to decide which one he picks rather than limit his options on sliders. However, if he had a poor decisions rating, I would agree with you and maybe limit it to only having often in the slider he averaged the best points in.


Thanks to everyone for all the feedback and suggestions on this so far, I didn't expect so many quality responses in such a short period of time!

retired_FaultyFate

Hi everybody,

Good ideas mates. Myst_, I think if one have an attacking player with high stats in most areas, it would be reasonable to give him a free role, setting everything on mixed, except for creative freedom. I believe in this case you give the player freedom to decide what to do, i.e. not restricting him to attempt long shots often. I use Cardenas and Aissati (wonderkind AMC I found in PSV, though I am not sure he is not random) with such settings and they always have ratings 7 or above, creating lots of assists and score as well. When I tried to give Cardenas "Often" long shots (he has great stats for it), he perfomed not so well as he tried it every other time he touched the ball.

As for the number of attributes to be used, I think it depends on a specific team. There are some drawbacks in both cases. For example, if player set to RWB often based on three attributes, but has poor decision and creativity, he won't know what to do with the ball (just example). On the other hand, too many attributes increase a chance that player will have mixed instruction everywhere, so you don't utilize player's strong sides. So, may be number of attributes should depend on the position. I.e. RWB for FB could be calculated based on more attributes, than for Wingers, to ensure that FB is capable to RWB without giving up his position too often.

As for closing down, I think it depends on the overall tactic. I play counter attack most of the time, so my Wingers, DM, FB and one of the FCs close down often relatively to others.

Btw, I would like to ask you guys a favor. I recently discovered one line on the Team talk feedback (dumb, I know, I should have found it earlier ) that was saying "Players have STRONG understanding what we want from them". Then, at one point I change my tactic (not formation) from counter attack to attacking (I played against much weaker team at home). I barely won 1-0, and when checked the Teamtalk feedback the line said "Players have developed GOOD understanding...". I returned to my counter attacking tactic for 3 games, and understanding became STRONG again. So could you please check how it works for your teams? I am in season 4 now, and I am wonderring how it develops from the beginning and how tweaking affects players understanding.

Thanks.

retired_janay731

Hi again

Let me try to explain better my point of view. Suppose this scenario:

Forward Runs - mixed
Runs With Ball - often
Long Shots - often
Through Balls - often
Cross Ball - rare

I do 2 things: first, i´ll take a look at key stats like pace, acceleratio, dribbling (runs with ball), pass, technique (through balls) and long shots, composure (long shots). If player got, for example, 17 or 18 for long shots and 15/16 for other stats i´ll set him to try long shots often and rest i just put mixed and let player decide what to do (decisions). Mixed means he´ll have 50-50 percentage of doing through balls and runs with ball.

As for creative freedom, i´m a bit conservative because i just set it high for 1 or 2 players based mainly on this stat and flair. Most times is AM C and one of the strikers (pacey one) which i give more freedom. And for me is the same for free role. Better to play team as a unit and respond to our individual instructions. But, once again, that´s my experience.

Just a final tip: go check personal profile (position details) to know which movements are preferred for certain players. That´s fundamental too for piece settings.

Cya soon

retired_FaultyFate

Myst_,

Your approach is actually very reasonable, as you utilize what your player can do best.

As for CF and free role, to me they are a little bit different. Imo CF means that player should not necessary follow the instructions when he has the ball (attacking mainly attribute), but he should stay in his position when defending. Free role states that player can use his own judgement about where to be during the game, but he will follow his individual instructions . I found that even DMC (a good one, of course) can play brilliantly with free role, as he makes more interceptions, passes, etc. Nevertheless, I have never had a squad where I would give free role or much creative player to more than 2 players, and even if I had, I would never do it.

Personal profile check is a great tip, will do it as soon as return to the game (******* work ).

retired_venomm

I hope to do a write up on the end of my first season with Messina on Sunday, I have just started playing the save again since my computer format. I'm having great success at the moment with my current tactics.



This is the best result I've managed so far in the save. I seem to have found appropriate team instructions to play against both large and small sides. I will write up my findings when the season is over (when I have had more games to test it, to be sure if they're working or not). I don't really want to discuss them yet as I'm only 4 matches into the season, but it looks promising as I have already outplayed Fiorentina and Palermo, and totally battered 2 low end sides. I'm just waiting for the huge off spell that seems to kick in after a nice early run like this.

I am finding myself only using one of my 6 different mentality tactics at the moment (the most defensive one) and I'm having great success with it. The interesting thing that I have noticed though that alot of my current instructions are nearly identical to the Watford tactic I was using in the save earlier in the post. So, once the first season is over I might save it, and play a few matches with some other teams without adjusting it, to see if it crosses over. If it seems to fit into most teams, I will upload it for people to have a play around with as a standalone tactic. If not, then it might be a while yet before I upload a physical tactic for people to try out.

It might just be pure luck that one tactic is performing against most oppositions and styles (including the season at Watford, as the tactics are so similar). However, I am hoping that it might be the fact that my player instructions are so varied that the player swapping is really upsetting the AI. I know I started off saying I was being very strict about adjusting player instructions when I bring a different player in because of injury, or a substitution. However, I have got a little bit lazy and havent changed instructions at all no matter who is playing with Messina - and it is still effective. So hopefully I might have hit on something. No promises though, like I say once I have finished and written up my first season, I shall test it out with other teams to see how effective it is before I consider uploading a version.