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Old 05-11-2007, 09:03 PM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #11
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it says in the manual that the flair attribute is connected to creative freedom so it might be worth including it.

i tried something similar with newcastle but no where near as much in depth as this method. my results were ok but i got tired of changing the individual settings for new players that i brought into the side.

its a great idea because there must be a mathematical way of cracking the AI imo. i'll be following this thread closely to see how people get on.

great thread paulsgruff!!!
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:19 PM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #12
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please could you make a tactic using this paulsgruff
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:52 PM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #13
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Damo,

I don't think his tactic will help you much. He will calculate all settings based on players in HIS squad. For example, if he has a very good RB, and you don't, his tactic most likely won't work for you. Even relatively small difference in stats affects tactic. The beauty of his approach that it gives you a base to build a good tactic for YOUR squad, and then you can try to either improve squad or improve tactic if something does not work very well.

Btw, paulsgruff, I have just thought how to deal with subs. I find it really boring to change single player settings during a game unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I guess as irl nothing is perfect
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Old 05-12-2007, 03:51 AM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #14
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Incase anyone is wanting to try this out and thinks it might be a little too fidly for their liking, I have done this table pretty quickly that you can print out and fill in. It's nothing special. It includes 22 slots (space of 2 players per position). On the first match of the season I go through my strongest 11 and fill in the columns when I have done the maths, then I write out the figures/description for my 5 subs and leave it as it is then, and I only add another players when I need to use them, and eventually without too much effort you will have a record of all the settings, so adjusting won't be a lengthy process. Saves time and recalculating often.

The columns that are missing like mentality and passings are for obvious reasons, mentality will change in my 6 versions of the tactics, and I am going to try out closing down and passing generally using team instructions. I use swap position column to write in who that player can potentially swap positions with.

Quick table
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Old 05-12-2007, 07:05 AM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #15
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Ok, so I wasn't planning on putting up in depth analysis showing how this method works, but I feel it would help understanding of how simple it really is. So unless people have objections, I would like to add a match by match report for my season at Watford (picked because they are the poorest team in the Premiership in real life).

Pre Season Adjustments
As I said in my guide at the top, my first task is to look at my squad and figure out what I think my strongest starting line up is and where I need to strengthen. I thought that this was my best selection of players: Line Up.

I didn't think my side had a decent enough right winger or right back, so my first task was to find some players to fit in. I had a £3million budget and loaded up an old shortlist I had and flicked through it. I made these signings. I felt alot happier now, I didn't actually sign a right midfielder but I felt the quality I brought in would fit into the team from the off. I then determined that I thought my new strongest starting line up was this one. So that's the formation I decided to use. I let my assistant get through my friendlies (I don't care about these results, it's just for match fitness). I was nearly ready for my first game of the season, away against Aston Villa.

My next important step was to do the time consuming attribute calculations (using the EXACT method stated in my first post, no adjustments or suggestions taken into account during my first save of testing). I filled out the chart I posted in order of starting line up and ended up with the following Watford Calculations.

The thing I love about these calculations, is that when you look at that chart - it shows perfectly how the side lack in quality. It looks totally unadvernturous, like you would expect from a poor team. Not one player qualifying for 'often', nobody with creativity over 15. The calculations naturally produce the expected from the defence, no forward runs on centre backs, with nobody else in the first 11 having normal tackling other than defenders and my more defensive midfielder. To me that looks a perfect representation of my sides weakness, and also the the best way to stand a chance of living with it.

First Premiership Match
Aston Villa away is not the nicest first fixture of the season, but it could have been worse. My scout report is totally vague and tells me absolutely nothing... great! The pre match odds show that I am not expected to win at all. I therefore assume (as my scout hasn't seen a Villa game) that they're going to play very attacking against me. So I need to choose my "Odds to lose, attacking apponents" tactic out of my 6 available. The most defensive.

I choose this and go to the match screen to look at how Villa are going to line up. The formations screen surprised me. Thanks alot Mr "Scout", that's hardly a 4-4-2. Oh well I wasn't going to change my tactic anyway. I think this might be important so I will bold it: Coming into matches, I leave my passing style and closing down unticked in every players individual instructions - so the team is playing to their strengths but able to use team instructions to control how they play as a unit - alot of people won't like this but I love this approach. I start with all the team instructions sliders right in the middle, see how the game starts, if I'm playing well I leave them as they are, if I'm struggling I adjust my passing/tempo/closing down slightly to see if it helps. Simple.

The result I got exceeded my expectations by far, not only winning the game 1-0, but actually dominating whilst away from home. Here is the match in screenshots:
Result & Match Stats
Player Ratings
Player Stats
Action Zones

The main problem people have been suggesting, is the use of subsitutes messing up player instructions. I was forced into a change at half time through injury, and it took around 5-10 seconds to adjust the player instructions for the player coming on (due to having them written out on the chart I displayed earlier in this post). I used my second substitute to replace the player with the poorest condition at the time around 75mins - mainly to inject a bit of energy and take off the most tired player. Then I used my final substitution to waste time right at the end (and to give myself an extra defensive player to give me the best chance not to throw away a result that it looked like I deserved.

Summary
A good, and to be honest, suprising start. I don't think this will happen every week, simply because teams will outplay me. But the tactics and the approach seemed to be sound in this game.

If there are any questions, please feel free to ask. If people don't want to read these reports on matches in this save, then I understand, it's alot of extra reading, just let me know. I am planning on saving all the matches this season as pkms and then uploading them as a zip (or maybe if someone can suggest a file that people will trust to open more than a zip, that would be great) somewhere so that everyone who wants to look at how this approach works in game during matches, can do so - picking out situations they find most useful to see from my fixture list (which I will detail with what happened) such as winning and holding on, losing and coming back, parking the bus etc.

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Old 05-12-2007, 08:17 AM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #16
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Second Premiership Match
Home against Middlesbrough. I got a propper scout report this time, and with the odds it is basically telling me that I'm playing with the Odds to Lose, Attacking Opponents tactic once again, most defensive. Watford 2, Middlesbrough 1.

Match Stats
Player Stats
Super Dirty Goal For Watford!

The dirty goal was great, their keeper picked up an injury outside the 6 yard box and my team didn't even think about putting the ball out, get in! Hehe.

Same tactic as the last match with the substitutes. Had to play Powell as Bouazza is out with the injury from the first game, only DL and ML player instructions were changed as players were changed (Stewart played as left winger instead of left back for this one - Powell at left back). Added Powell's instructions to my calculated chart as it was the first time I've needed to use him (hence why it took a while to get the 2nd match up - figuring out his instructions and then checking them on the chart), so thats another player I can put into the team and set his instructions up in next to no time. This game was nowhere near as comfortable as the Villa match, Middlesbrough we're creating and I was convinced they were going to snatch a draw, or even win when they got their goal back.

My team, for some reason, seems to be creating a hell of alot of chances saying theyre playing on my most defensive possible mentality tactic. I still have all the team instructions set to the exact middle and passing/closing down unticked on all the player instructions. I used my DM again at the end as a sub for my 2nd striker to make my team harder to break down and to waste time right at the end. He's never going to get himself a good rating playing in matches like this but he's damn useful to bring on.

The position swapping is working amazingly well, I am swapping my 2 MCs with each other, my 2 wingers with each other, and my 2 front men also. It's pulling visible holes in the midfield/defence

Going to have a break for a while now though. I will try and get a few more matches posted either later this afternoon, or tomorrow when I get time to play it some more.
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Old 05-12-2007, 08:47 AM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by kolobok:
Damo,

I don't think his tactic will help you much. He will calculate all settings based on players in HIS squad. For example, if he has a very good RB, and you don't, his tactic most likely won't work for you. Even relatively small difference in stats affects tactic. The beauty of his approach that it gives you a base to build a good tactic for YOUR squad, and then you can try to either improve squad or improve tactic if something does not work very well.

Btw, paulsgruff, I have just thought how to deal with subs. I find it really boring to change single player settings during a game unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I guess as irl nothing is perfect
yes but i will manage watford lol
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Old 05-12-2007, 10:18 AM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Damo14:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by kolobok:
Damo,

I don't think his tactic will help you much. He will calculate all settings based on players in HIS squad. For example, if he has a very good RB, and you don't, his tactic most likely won't work for you. Even relatively small difference in stats affects tactic. The beauty of his approach that it gives you a base to build a good tactic for YOUR squad, and then you can try to either improve squad or improve tactic if something does not work very well.

Btw, paulsgruff, I have just thought how to deal with subs. I find it really boring to change single player settings during a game unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I guess as irl nothing is perfect
yes but i will manage watford lol </BLOCKQUOTE>

He's done all the work already, look at his screenshots and just fill it in, not that hard is it?
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Old 05-12-2007, 01:30 PM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #19
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The Season So Far - 10 Games In
These are all the fixtures, results and screenshots I took from the next 8 games after the Middlesbrough match. So I am now 10 games into the season.

PRM - Charlton 1 v Watford 1 Match Stats
PRM - Watford 1 v Newcastle 0 Match Stats
PRM - Sheff Utd 1 v Watford 1 Match Stats
LC - Watford 1 v West Brom 2 Match Stats
PRM - Watford 0 v Chelsea 1 Match Stats
PRM - Arsenal 2 v Watford 3 Match Stats
PRM - Watford 1 v Everton 1 Match Stats
PRM - Man City 4 v Watford 1 Match stats
PRM - Watford 2 v Wigan 2 Match Stats

I'm extremely happy with how these fixtures have gone. I have no clue what so ever what went so wrong against Man City, I think it was just one of those games. Here is the current league table after the first 10 games of the season.



My main high points have been the play against Everton and the dominance against Chelsea.

Outplayed Chelsea but lost:


I went an hour against Everton not allowing them a single shot, enjoying alot of possesion:


So far, so good! This method isn't working as well as it for big teams (naturally - as the players aren't in the same quality bracket). However, it is far exceeding expectations (media prediction of 9th - only been odds on to win 1 match so far). If it wasn't for a few late late goals by the opposition (the 2nd Wigan goal that went in was in the 94th minute) I could well but up around 3rd-4th. So I'm pretty happy with how this is working out with a smaller team so far, but there is a long way to go in this season.
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Old 05-12-2007, 01:43 PM   Creating a tactic: Mathematical Sliders approach/theory looking for feedback - it's all about the individual! Post #20
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So many errors in that last bit there - media prediction is 19th, not 9th. It should have said this method isn't working as well as it DOES for big teams.

To add a bit of extra detail. I am enjoying more shots than my opponents in nearly all my matches, and my possesion has usually been higher, and we are creating goalscoring opportunities for fun. In the game against Chelsea, I was convinced we were going to win, we created so much but didn't work the keeper enough - happens.

I am still extremely convinced that the main reason we are creating so many chances, getting shots in and dominating possesion is down to having all 6 attacking players swapping positions constantly, the AI doesn't seem to have a clue what's going on with the varying player instrucitons for players when they move to different areas.

My target for the season I think is going to be an ambitious top 8 finish. Hopefully the tactics will hold up and I won't get too many injuries as my squad is... well... pretty pathetic really
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