retired_rayrhi

Let me start off by telling you all that I have been here from the beginning of Champ Man time. I remember the delight in guessing the access codes to (ahem! don't tell the police, my copied version of) Championship Manager Italia; the excitement of doing all nighters on the weekend; the sheer joy of the flashing screen as Frank Strandli notched another for my invincible Leeds team. How things have changed in real life eh? . My dedication and loyalty to the series across many memorable playing years thus can not be called into question.

Now, I don't agree with the complaining and crying posts about how the game is too difficult, but I do sympathise with folks since I can see where the frustrations are coming from. I too have been to the pits of rage playing FM07. In my last five saved games in the first season I have: won the Premiership with Everton, finished a respectable third with Bolton, escaped relegation by only one point with West Ham (sacked), finished 2nd with West Ham, and finished 15th with Newcastle (sacked). The funny thing about it is that I used the same 4-4-2 formation for every team and I did not sign any players. Now, the thing that strikes me the most is the disparity between the places I finished with West Ham. I consider myself a sound dynamic tactician, meaning, that I change tactics as per the situation at hand. I have to agree to a certain extent with a lot of people that in previous incarnations of Football Manager, it has been easier to get results, and that to a certain degree, 07 is simply NOT as enjoyable as other versions. I feel that SI may have taken a bridge too far too soon, yet a bridge that I am glad they have traversed. Let me explain:

The advances in AI are nothing short of spectacular—the fact that the computer managers can react to counter you has added a welcome rise in difficulty. In other versions, the game did indeed become a little too easy. However, I can't help feeling that with this advancement in AI, should have come an advancement in tactical implementation, and most importantly, FEEDBACK. Relevant and written feedback. As far as I am concerned, the sliders simply have to go. Or, they have to be EXPLAINED once and for all, or the options need a common sense revamp. Countless are the number of threads asking what certain sliders do and how they interact with other sliders. It's been a common theme for years now. If so many of us realise that something is amiss, or that there simply is not enough information in the manual, then why hasn't it been addressed? It's easy to say (and a lot of people do) that part of the fun of the game is discovering how each of the sliders work. I disagree with this entirely. Instead of giving my team simple and concise instructions in each match, I am often left scratching my head as to how to counter this, or how to do this. For example, the useless defensive line slider. It doesn't matter how far left you set it, your back-line will simply never sit deep. Why do I need to manipulate a barrage of ambiguous settings to get my team or players to perform a simple action? Football is a simple game. Football Manager is an exercise in trial, error, and luck it seems to me.

As advanced as the game is, the lack of feedback is the thorn in the lion's paw. The title of this thread is 'I can't Accept Success or Failure Without a Reason...'. Let us go back to my two West Ham seasons. Why did I almost win the Premiership in one season, and why did I almost sink to the bottom in another using the exact same approach? This is the million dollar question. Where is the consistency? What did I do wrong? The answer: Who the **** knows? I am willing to accept that it could have been morale. I am willing to accept that it could have been a slump in form that we couldn't claw our way back from. I am willing to accept that a dressing room fallout could have poisoned the chemistry. I am willing to accept even that I was just plain unlucky. In fact, I am willing to embrace all of these things because this is the essence and the beauty of football. What I can simply just NOT accept though is the not knowing why. If it was one of these reasons, then TELL ME! I don't want to decipher any hidden codes. I don't want to tweak the sliders until I hit the jackpot. I just want to know why. In plain English. No numbers, just language. That's all I ask.

When I succeed in Football Manager with a lower team, I am discouraged, not excited. It is a hollow thing, success these days in this game. The only thing I can conclude when I succeed with a lower team is that I do well because I do well. I don't know why I succeed, and i don't know why I fail. I simply do or I don't. For some, this may be enough, but not me. I need to know why. Sadly, my joy for the game is diminishing because it seems that success is based on luck rather than skill. There are many theorists in this forum held in high regard (we all know who you are) and I admire and applaud their efforts in attempting to decipher the game. Unfortunately, all the theories in the world mean nothing if there is no proof to back up these claims. And on top of this, I doubt them more so since many people come back stating that they don't work even though they have followed the instructions to a tee. The reply is always the same. "Well, you didn't adapt it correctly. You didn't apply it right. These are just guidelines, not concrete solutions". Never is the answer, "The game has inconsistencies", or maybe, just maybe "The game is flawed". Too many people turn a blind eye to the series' flaws because they are die-hard loyalists. This is a problem in itself. It's understandable to want to blame the player rather than the program or the engine. Ignorance is bliss right? And who knows, maybe SI know this, and the ambiguity of the infamous slider system is just enough to keep us all interested and hidden very nicely from the truth.

I will continue to play this game until 08, and I will continue to play onwards after. Why? I know that one day, they will get it just right. It's close, it's really close.

retired_pennyyoung

nice read

good points

retired_afaist

/agree

totally

retired_B-Scott

good post :thup:

I agree that a hard game is good. This is the first football manager game that poses a real challenge, and there is no satisfaction in winning if there is no challenge.

When we lose with a previously good system, that is not a problem in itself - but it would be nice if the reasons for this failure were somewhat clearer, so we could learn and adapt - and not make the same mistakes gain.

retired_mgavlick

The game is flawed; no question.

a: too many instances of a defender touching a nothing ball out for a corner when under no pressure

b: ridiculous ricochets off the post

c: appallingly bad corner kicks (I have a corner taker with crossing 20, free kicks 19, corners 20 who hits at least two corners a game straight out of play).

d: opposition players standing right in front of free kicks and the taker taking it anyway

e: too many amazing free kick goals

However, I don't believe the engine has any serious problems that invalidate logical tactical instruction. I have had recent correspondence with someone managing Milan, wjho told me he was following my most recent theories to a T. In replying to his enquiry, I discovered he had started a match against the team lying dead last with a counter-attack strategy. He also went through every tactic randomly during a 45 minute period. It is no wonder he was struggling!

Given such evidence, I suggest that my ideas are being applied poorly, as I explicitly state:

a: use the tactics depending on how you view your chances of winning the match. If you are Milan and think you will have to focus on defence against Genoa then you are not using good judgement

b: don't change tactics ad infinitum during a match.

c: look at the match stats to see how well you are doing

I don't say 'randomly pick a tactic, then keep on randomly changing it in the blind hope you'll get it right!'

I have only lost 3 games in the last 18 months. In one of those three I did everything right but was just beaten by a better side on the day. In the other two I made tactical mistakes that cost me. I know what the mistakes were, they had logical consequences, and I shall endeavour not to make them again. If I can understand the wheres, whats and whys, I'm sure you can too.

I can't offer you proof; even if I upload my save game there is no evidence I didn't restart every game until I won. I could upload some pictures of match stats (60-65% possession is commonplace for me at home now, 50-60% away) if that would help you believe. You also have to take into consideration you can offer me no proof in your assumption of the inconsistencies of the engine, as, apart from the above, I don't see them. I am sure they are very real to you but they are equally unreal to me.

The impossibility of my actually sitting next to you to tell you when and how things were going well/wrong offers only one solution. You accept my (or others) theories as useful and apply them over a period of time. You need to accept there is an inbuilt learning curve, from which you will emerge with a better understanding of the game and a more enjoyable playing experience. You may not win immediately, you will make mistakes, but they will become few and far between as you go on. Alternatively, you could dismiss my ideas as total rubbish. It's been done many times before.

With your West Ham example: was it a different season or did you play the same season twice? If it was a follow on season then things will have changed.

retired_ladylimdiddy

The poor documentation is obviously a big problem.

What I cannot understand is why can SI not come out now and explain things to us once and for all. Surely they read these forums and can see there are alot of people frustrated and on the brink of giving up on this game.

Yes I can appreciate they are busy with new projects etc. But surely just a single post on here from SI to clear some things up would really help alot.

I'd like to be given the opportunity to enjoy this game at least for the final 5/6 months or so before FM2008 is released.

retired_rayrhi

Wwfan: For my West Ham game, I saved the game at game 1, played the season, almost got relegated, then I loaded the exact saved game and played it again and finished second. I am the type of player that plays with a basic 4-4-2 'formation', but I change my 'tactics' before and during a game as I see fit.

By the way, amongst your list of flaws you failed to mention how dangerous it is to take a goal kick—that's the one that gets me.

I have absolute faith in your honesty so I feel it would be an utter waste of time, and awful shallow of me, to request that you post screenies of your success. You have to understand that I am not dismissing your theories. In fact, I have read them quite thoroughly and there is hardly any difference in the way I approach the game. You obviously know a thing or two about the real game, and you apply these thoughts to FM. That's the beauty of the game is it not? That's the fantasy. What I am trying to say though, my friend, is that although these theories could work, and probably do, there is not enough feedback within the game to know for sure. Take my West Ham game. As I already mentioned, I am willing to accept 'outside' variables such as morale, weather, bad luck, alcoholic midfielders, and strikers who lose form after being found with a prostitute in Liverpool . But you know, if all these things affect the tactical aspect (you could say match result), then surely we should be told. I am not ignorant enough to believe that I should win every match, nor do I expect that I should finish 2nd or win the division with the Hammers time and time again. But come on mate, you have to agree that there is a massive gulf in consistency there after finishing 15 places apart. I played exactly he same teams in exactly the same order. It was an identical saved game but started over. Now, Carlos Tevez can occasionally be a bad seed. Could this have affected one of my seasons? I don't know. The bottom line is that I just don't know. Now: Tactics. Surely SI can incorporate some kind of feedback system for a failing or indeed successful tactic. If the AI knows how to counter your formation, then it knows where your tatics are going wrong. And if the AI knows this, then SI knows this! And if SI know this, then it shouldn't be such a feat of ingenious programming to just give us a slice of English language (No numbers pleeeeaaaassssseeee!) once in a while to communicate the 'reality'. Without this, we are always deciphering statistics and numbers numbers numbers. Wouldn't it be great to have an assistant manager say something along the lines of:

Overall Form
"The form of the team is suffering every time Tevez plays. We should sell him."
"Reo-Coker seems to be driving the team forward and form is good."
"The players look far more motivated now Tevez has gone."
"The team play much better when Sheringham is in the team."
"The team has been SO unlucky lately. Your tactics are spot on, just be patient."
"Morale is really affecting form."
"The mentality of the players is second to none. They are playing above themselves."

Half-Time Feedback
"Downing is really dominating Neill. Neill is closing him down too much".
"We can't get near United, I suggest that we stop pressing".
"It's far too crowded in the middle. Play wider and get the ball to the wingers".
"Etherington does not look interested. He's not making an effort. Drag him off."

Now, I am no master programmer. In fact, I no nothing about designing games, but my dream is to have a Football Manager that is of some sort of feedback level. The examples above are just slices of numerous ideas I have for the game. If we could just KNOW a little about the hows and whys of your tactics and morale, then a lot more people I think would be able to accept why they just can not succeed, and I would be able to accept why I am successful.

Wwfan, as for your suggestion that there is a steep learning curve, I am not sure if this is true as such. If a learning curve means trial and error in vain then maybe you are right. But to learn something is to discover the truth. In this game, it is difficult to 'learn' anything due to the inconsistencies. I would guess that a lot of people 'learn' bad habits with regards to tactics because they start to win due to other variables not linked to the way they play. So, when these 'other' non-tactical variables fall short and they have to pull through with tactical implementaion, they are left with a flawed system and a rather confused look. "It used to work. Why not now?" Do you see where I am coming from here? If there was a simple statement from your ass man saying "Your tactic is flawed here, here, and here", or you could improve this by doing this, this, or this, then I feel that the game would truly be taken on to a very high level.

retired_janellewood86

I whole heartedly agree. I don't want them coming on here and telling us "oh, by the way, if you do this, this and this you'll win every time", but the amount of people complaining about poor feedback should surely spur someone into just some brief outlines of their thinking behind each slider, and how they intended the human to play the game.

arteta, well written and thought out posts. :thup:

retired_rayrhi

Exactly Millie. You mention an important point which I think I failed to mention. I promise I will keep this one short.

The last thing we need is to be spoon-fed the magic formula to win each game. Obviously this would destroy the whole experience. You know, just because a team can see how to beat Chelsea, it doesn't mean that they can. Personally, I think that Chelsea are weak down the flanks, but not many teams will be able to beat them if they try. The point is, we should still know where and why we are going wrong, but without decreasing the difficulty. We have the tools, but we just don't know what to do with them, or we have not been told.
Keep your thoughts coming. It seems like a few of us are on common ground here.

retired_weeha

Good idea arteta. I think this would be a good idea but of course, like real life, their accuracy of what they tell you should depend on their stats because if they got it right all the time, that would make it too easy.

Also this would add yet another dimension to the game and make it closer to real life. Should i listen to my assistant manager or shouldnt i?

Very good idea, Thumbs up