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i get all the problems of Basque, Catalan and similar people. However, all this fragmentation of major nations is doing nothing good for the people that live in it. Instead opposing sites would sit down and talk, everybody starts with independance threats.
If nations in Yugoslavia would rather sit down and talk about possible solutions to get the country out of the mess it was in, we would now still have Yugoslavia as Democratic federation and all those war casulties alive.
05-09-2006, 01:07 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #23
Funny, though, that the only ones making threats are Castillan right-wing extremists who deem the Catalan and Basque far too separatist and claim they have to be subdued into the Spanish Nationalism (as if there was such a thing as Spanish Nationalism )
How can there be a Spanish Nationalism if Spain as such didn't exist until Mid-XVIIIth century is quite beyond me, to be frank. And more if you consider that the alledged common history we share is one of oppression and abuses from Madrid to us catalan and basques since that day until 30 years ago (with small 30-35 year gaps in which we went out of Absolutism/Dictatorship to Republic/Democracy only to be dragged back to Dictatorship 'because those separatists are getting too much liberties').
05-09-2006, 01:21 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #24
It is a trend nowdays to slam everybody that is different. Ofcourse, for idiots it is easier if their targets are of different skin tone or nationality, because it is visible.
However this people should have nothing to do with the country nor politics. However a memory to the WWII is vaining and many youbng people think that nationalism is a good way to go.
We had and still have the same in Yugoslavia / whatever was left of it. Serbians are praising Chetnicks, Croats are praising Ustashes, Slovenians are more and more relating with The White guard etc. This is not good. It leads people to suffering. But jsut don't think that independence would cure any of it. It would jsut transport it to the next best thing.
05-09-2006, 01:26 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #25
If people are bull-headed enough to feel a huge pride for the land they were born in, pride to carry a flag, pride enough to say they're Nationalist then the next logical step is for them to be xenophobic towards other Nationalities.
Why the hell can't people just say we're citizens of the world, regardless of skin colour, religion, sexuality or nationality.
Yeah, I know...utopian view, never happen
05-09-2006, 01:28 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #26
Actually I think that the worst thing that could happen to Spain is to get nations seceeding left and right. However, a confederation of the Nations of Spain (definition of Spain under the 1st and the 2nd Spanish Republics) is what most fits into my idea of Spain.
The main problem here is that there are lots of people in Spain who would never allow such a thing to happen (as demonstrated in the endings of the aforementioned Republics) and in nowadays politic state of the country.
05-09-2006, 01:31 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #27
Never said you were claiming separatism, Jorid. Just saying that it doesn't lead anywhere.
BTW: Why do you think that Yugoslavia broke to nearly six seperate countries? Exact same reasons. There were Slovenians and Macedonians, who wanted a federation, and Serbians and Croats that didn't, because each ahd it's own calculations. How that ended, you could observe from 1990s on.
05-09-2006, 01:33 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #28
Ian, you know me well enough (I hope) to know that I'm not Nationalist and separatist.
However, not being nationalist and separatist is a long way apart from denying my cultural heritage. I'm not stating we're the best thing. Actually, I know we aren't. Not by a far mile.
Heck... the only thing we Catalans are good at is getting invaded by 'foreigner' armies (Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Visigoth, Arab, French, Spanish and now by immigration waves) and making business!
Don't get me wrong. Part of our national identity comes from the fact that we've been invaded so many times and yet we somehow manage to get the newcomers to mix in into the melting pot that our society is (e.g. the unprecedented assimilation of the Argentinians that came after 'el corralito'. Elsewhere in Spain, those communities are like guettos. In Catalonia they mix and mingle with the 'natives' and they even have learnt their language).
05-09-2006, 01:55 PM
Apologies if this is a stupid question... Post #30
Jordi, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, it was purely an observation.
I'm Scottish, I have a certain pride in being Scottish, I follow the National Team's results ( ) and I give subtle (and not so subtle) digs to the English members of the Board, and fully expect and receive the same back.
I would never call myself a Scottish Nationalist, or even particularly Patriotic. I've seen guys weeping when "Flower Of Scotland" is played (me too, but for entirely different, musical and historic, reasons ). Those same guys hate the English, or so they say.
What I'm saying is anyone I've known who says they're Nationalist have also been xenophobic.
Do you, does anyone here, think it's possible to be a Nationalist and a Citizen of the World?
) and I give subtle (and not so subtle) digs to the English members of the Board, and fully expect and receive the same back.
). Those same guys hate the English, or so they say.
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