retired_huseyinek

I knew we were in for a long bad presidency when pulling out of the Kyoto treaty was Dubya's first act as president.

retired_mrsjb

Just look at their voting records and bills proposed, not their rhetoric when positioning themselves for a presidential run. That info is readily available. Hilary is a big lib, as is Kerry. But again, maybe there is a difference in what we are calling libs and cons.

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Nail. Head. Hit. (the bold part).

The US Conservative propaganda machine tells us that anyone who doesn't have conservative views is a "liberal" Most democrats are centrists. Which would, in the old UK scheme, make them liberals, where Labour was left, Liberal Centrist and Conservatives Right. However. that's not what they mean, is it? What <STRIKE>Fox</STRIKE>Bush News Channel imply is that a liberal is a 'screaming commie'. Most people in the US don't know what real left wing is, frankly. Hillary Clinton isn't a leftie by any means.

retired_nahed

pangaea,

my last statement on this thread...no I have not been to Iraq myself, however, I have sopken to hundreds of people who have.

I'll leave you with this. Take it as you will:

A member of my parish did 3 tours of duty in Iraq. The last thing he told his friends before he left the third time: "I don't think I'm coming home this time, but the children over there need me."

He was killed by an IED.

retired_lapepe

Sorry for his death, but itproved my point really. They think they are doing it for the people of Iraq, while they are doing as a service for big oil and weapons corporations, among others, and increased US presence and control of the Mid-East of course.

The conservative/liberal spectrum in US politics is way off anyway, as mentioned by others above. Bush is trying to create some sort of Christian state, living by the rules of the bible (hmm, who else is doing this, only with Sharia-laws??). Liberals, and certainly if we're talking "lefties" pursue policies that are good for the people, as in increased social security etc, while conservatives pursue policies that are good for businesses.

Then there is the neo-con/neo-lib stuff. Bush and his cronies are what is known as neocons, but they to a large degree follow neoliberal policies. It's just a mix of terms that don't really mean much in the US anymore.

Hillary Clinton isn't left-wing or liberal. Perhaps in the distorted sense liberalism is viewed in the US, but not in proper terms. She is very pro-war and not least pro-Israel, as it is called. If she will run for presidency she'll probably run further to the right though. She'd be less bad than Jeb Bush or whoever will run for the Republicans, but just marginally. In reality there isn't all that much difference between the Republicans and the Democrats, especially on the big issues.

retired_raistlin1979

Pangaea,
You're just going to have to accept that "liberal" and "conservative" are not absolute. Hillary is a left-leaning, often liberal politician... in the context of the United States. So is Kerry. Simply put, the U.S. is one of the most conservative first world nations, and far more conservative than almost all of Europe. Once you understand that the terms are relative, it's a lot easier to grasp.

Also, I'm not buying some of these numbers which are getting pulled from thin air. 1% of Iraqis support US occupation? Shoot, just due to polling errors, I'd expect it to be a minimum of 5%... which makes me believe the poll itself had a slant or you're misremembering.

Still calling bullshit. First of all, you could never prove that statement. Second, considering how easy it is to be a covert terrorist, they can easily escape attention for a while although usually not forever. Lastly, you're telling me that *no one* in a generally hostile third-world Islamic country had some crazy fundamentalist beliefs to destroy today's incarnation of Satan (America)? Bullshit.

Ignats,
I honor your friend, and all our soldiers. I firmly believe that the US has done more good than harm in the world. But America is not infalliable - something you seem unwilling to admit.

Iraq was a mistake. We invaded for a ficticious reason. It had nothing to do with 9/11. Our government lied about WMD, and then went to war over it. Tens of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of Americans are dead because of those lies. I'm sorry, but our government should (but won't) be held accountable. Sure, our soldiers are doing their best, and many Iraqis are helped by them. But our government is still at fault.

And lastly, it's not at all surprising that the US is losing in Iraq. Guerilla war is extraordinarly hard to fight, and the nation as a whole is slowly turning against the US. Even before the tidings turned bad, the generals on the ground requested tons more troops... which were deined by our genius civilian leaders.

retired_jade1813

What has all this got to do with LLM and fm? :toofar:

retired_sandra

What has your comment got to do with this discussion? :rant:

retired_crazybonejr

Mikael, it's not an on topic thread unless it's gone off topic.

retired_jmathias

Don't get me started on Israel Ignats. Israel is a country created on a land that Europe & US stole from Palestinians.

As far as 9/11 goes. Nothing can justify civilian victims in what is a political warfare. But that should go both ways. And 3000-6000 civilian victims cannot justify 100000+ on the other side.
Specially, since this is all a coverup for monopolisation of oil. Think about it. If you control oil, you control world.

retired_uppenamy

My 2 cents.

I am firmly Anti-American government, as people I found you mostly terrific, especially US women :p but your government has some real serious issues over the last 100 years. Your government is as twofaced as It gets. If it furthers US policy you get invololved and if it doesnt US has its head in the sand.

1. WW1 1917 an US liner is sunk by a German Uboat and Woodrow Wilson DoWs on Germany, FFS guys 3 years of the worst bloodshed on this planet and your government had its head up it ass.Suddenly Americans die, and you commit your forces to a war thats is just about over anyway.General Pershing at 6am on the 11/11/1918 sent 10 thousand American troops to there deaths, already knowing that the war was over.My point? US servicemen will do there duty, US leadership know it and abuse it.
2. WW2 For 5 years the world was at war, dont hand me this Sept 3 bullshit, WW2 started when Japan invaded China in 37, an US service ship was sank by Japanese fire, I beleive in late 37 and your spineless government backed off.Chinese losses during this war were appallling, over 12 million Chinese died at the hands of the Japs, highly civilians, yet the US did NOTHING.US answer was an oil embargo on the Japanese,I sit and still shake head at this to this day.I will never jusitfy this in my mind why the US didnt help.When did the US get Involved? Only after Pearl Harbour when the Pacific Fleet was attacked. Even the it took a Declaration of war from Hitler for the US to be at war with the worst blemish in Human History.
3.Korea It took till S.Korea almost ceased to exist before Truman got interested.Again US Government had its head in the sand and wanted no part of a war till it was almost over.
4.Vietnam see Korea.
5.Gulf war part 1 I was there, serving on the HMAS Brisbane you guys who are saying that the civvies want you there have no ****ing idea what your talking about. They hated us back in 91 I can only imagine what the civvs are feeling now. Get out of there as fast as your damned transport ships can carry you, you cant win here no matter what the US do.
6 George Bush Jr, he really scares me, not long after his 1st inaugaration as president, he wanted war with N.Korea following an US aircraft been shot down. NOt sure on details but I remember waking up 1 morning with this incident in the news, I have never forgotten it.Since then, hes not resolved my fear, and you stupid bastards put him in AGAIN.
7. I have little to say about 9/11 these where I just innocent people going about their lives and it was an atrocity I hope we never see again, the firemen who entered the 1st tower will always in my mind be the bravest souls I have encountered.
8. My mind the worst US polcy to date. Kampuchea Polpot had estimated 4-6million people killed yet the US did ****all you call yourselves the World police but in the light of 1 of the worlds worst atrocities the US once again buried its head.
Conclusion Hang your heads in shame the Us government has betrayed you, the world and those that have suffered for almost 100 years.This stance continues today with Iraq.We went in 91 and shouldve ended Saddams reign then ,15 years later damn you guys are slow.