[retired_khanw1]

Thanks for posting this Miles, it's nice to see an explanation of what's going on and the process of putting out a patch.

I've posted on these boards only occasionally in the past, but rest assured I have been playing since the old Domark days, and I once figured out that I'd spent 10% of my waking hours at University playing ChampMan (as it was) and about 2% of that time studying. It's made me the unemployed ex-programmer I am today, so thanks for that.

Obviously ignoring the posts that say "this game is a joke, I want my money back, SI are clowns etc" is fair enough, but there are some concerns that long term fans of the series have that I think are legitimate. Being a long term fan, I thought you might like to hear what I think of where the series is headed as a whole.

Firstly, let me say that I think this version of FM will be the best yet - once the patch is out. I've thoroughly enjoyed it so far, and other than some annoying bugs I think you've all done a great job. So get the patch right, because then we can crack on with the game.

However, I would like to ask how far has this version really come from the original FM? It's the best version, but a cake with three cherries on top is by definition better than a cake with only one (assuming you like cherries). That's not to say that the three cherry cake is substantially, mind-bendingly better than the one cherry cake, so you feel kind of cheated when the next week the baker convinces you to buy another cake just because it's got five cherries on. It's still the same cake at heart, just with a few more cherries. Eventually you will just sit back and wait for the ten cherry cake with extra icing and a naked woman inside, and until then you'll find something else to fill your time.

And that extremely torturous analogy is how I feel about FM.

My main concern is the match engine. Once the move to the 2D engine was made, I assumed a lot more would be done to improve it over time. Everything that is being done to improve it is being done behind the scenes, and that's great because that's what the FM series is about. But come on, let's have something nice to look at for a change!

It's still extremely basic looking, and I for one would love to see the next version of Football Manager really go to town on the visual aspects of the match day. Of course, that's not what the series has ever been about (thank God) but it would still be nice to have something to look at that really conveys what's going on without having to read the text as well.

The one thing I have been impressed with from what I've seen of your main rival whose name I shall not utter, is the look of the engine. I think a lot of people will be very, very happy with the background stuff going on in the FM engine and all the other aspects of the game so why not improve the front end?

Let's be honest, once FM 2007 was patched to it's final version, it was a top game and would be very hard to improve upon. Yet every iteration of the series seems to take the engine and try to rewrite large chunks of it, and then step back and back until what we have is a very similar representation of the the previous engine, because that's what people were happy with.

I am not asking for FIFA 2008 visuals, or even flashy 3D graphics, but an isometric view like your rivals, so you can see players heading the ball, whipping a cross in, goalies diving to stop long range shots, defenders hoofing it upfield, or strikers pulling 50 yard passes out of the air with perfect control (or watch as the ball pings off their boot like Emile Heskey) would, for me, be fantastic. It doesn't have to be amazing looking, it just needs to convey what's happening in as basic a way as needs be. At the moment I find that the engine seems flat, the players take up about 5 times the space they should, and the pitch seems small. Maybe that's just me.

I've also hoped for a long time that we would get some representation of the fans and the stadium. It would be nice to see the place empty and falling apart when you take over, and as you get the club going in the right direction more fans turn up and there's a good atmosphere.

Maybe that kind of thing wouldn't be popular and some people might feel it's gimmicky, but when I look at Civilization, another of my favourite long-running series, I see that each iteration produces a game that's way better looking than it's predecessor.

I realise that FM produces a version every year, but rather than spend the time between releases adding some other bit of Media interaction or changing the team talk or training again and again, why not take the FM2008 engine and just build a snazzy front-end for the Match Day engine on top?

That's the kind of change that I need to continue buying the game long-term. Previously, there have been leaps made fairly regularly. The leap from CM2 to CM3 for instance was colossal and brilliant. CM3 to CM4 was of course the biggest yet....and that was five years ago.

Since then we've had a lot of polish, but no giant leaps for FM Kind.


A couple of final points about the actual representation of football by the engine - something I've noticed for a while is that players never get "fooled" by another player. You don't see a defender sliding to block a pass, and the striker dummying him and taking the ball past him as the defender slides hopelessly into touch. Also, you don't get the ball played between defenders for a run made round the back. Every single team plays the offside trap in real life, it's bread and butter for defenders, but you don't see it represented too well in FM. Those are just a couple of final things I wanted to mention.

Anyway, thanks for your post, and I hope it's well received on the boards.

[retired_abzmitchem]

Thanks for all the information provided in your post, Miles.

I think that by far the largest part of the community acknowledge the good work all the guys at SI put into the game before and after its release to the public.

Patience is a virtue for a reason and in knowing how much you care about the community and the game, I don't think that anybody can really say anything bad about the company.

After all, even CM4 with a multitude of problems ended up being a fantastic game after all the enhancement packs were released.

All I'm saying here really is that I've never doubted the company's commitment to its product and its fan base; and I'm sure that the majority feels exactly like I do too.

Thank you.

[retired_txanya]

Originally posted by msteuk:
<BLOCKQUOTE>We've learnt over the years that it's not possible to please all people, all of the time, particularly not when you have as rabid and passionate a community as we have, so we concentrate on doing our best at all times.

Describing customers as 'rabid'? </BLOCKQUOTE>

I know

[retired_stiongs]

Thank you Miles for the update!!!! Just one question...

Has work been done on the the player improvement issues within the training? This has been my main issue with the game so far and I'm just really hoping this has been addressed

Thanks for all your hard work! Look forward to the full patch

[isabe]

Originally posted by msteuk:
<BLOCKQUOTE>We've learnt over the years that it's not possible to please all people, all of the time, particularly not when you have as rabid and passionate a community as we have, so we concentrate on doing our best at all times.

Describing customers as 'rabid'? </BLOCKQUOTE>

They wanted the truth from SI, they got the truth. That it might not be too pleasant for some of them is another thing...

[leanwitit]

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
ritalix - whilst that might sound like a simple thing to do, it isn't. Getting a patch out to the Dream Team and our testers is, due to the code that they have, but as I said above, doing all the builds to put something live takes a day or so, and I'd rather we were spending that time testing internally, and getting things sorted, than spending that time releasing a beta patch, otherwise the whole process of the full patch will be slowed down.

Tim_77 - I haven't found that in mine. Have just paid £22m for a "fred" right back, 20 years old, as the other club just didn't want to sell (and Mika Aaritalo has made me a lot of money more than once!)

Oh yes! Mika was a 275k buy for me in my first season with Pompey - good scouting!

It is a shame that some others here cannot get chance to test this new beta in addition to the dream team. Not just the most constructive or vocal, but those who play the game in a slightly different way. This will often enable a more balanced view of isses - both identification and impact

Perhaps you will / may have already considered this. I'm well up for it

[Mikey JS]

Personally I think the match engine is ok, visually, although you could have at least added some terraces, floodlights, maybe even stadiums - nothing too complicated but simple graphics to make it more fun. I am sure this could be achieved in the future.

I really hope that in future you concentrate on the player/manager/board relationship and make it a lot more realistic. At this point in the series, I don't think it's too much to ask to expect the board to respond to actual results in relation to who you are playing, and not make sweeping generalisations about your performance as a manager. Things should be taken into account such as how far you have brought the club, loyalty based on what you have achieved in past seasons etc. This would make the game so much better, and I am most disappointed that this has been only superficially enhanced in FM08. I doubt the patch will be addressing this of course, so I am bound to end up disappointed by this game no matter what.

I think you should seriously think about take a year off from this game if you cannot upgrade it sufficiently and intelligently for next year. And you need to work a lot harder in releasing a finished product that is 100% playable out the box. I get the impression your team is too small to warrant an annual FM game successfully.

[retired_txanya]

Originally posted by Profesor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by msteuk:
<BLOCKQUOTE>We've learnt over the years that it's not possible to please all people, all of the time, particularly not when you have as rabid and passionate a community as we have, so we concentrate on doing our best at all times.

Describing customers as 'rabid'? </BLOCKQUOTE>

They wanted the truth from SI, they got the truth. That it might not be too pleasant for some of them is another thing... </BLOCKQUOTE>

And the truth that they've offered here is that the game was unplayable on release and remains unfinished.

Complete justification for any "rabid" behaviour from the customers imo.

[retired_di23401]

Thanks very much for the update Miles. Very interesting to gain an insight into the process patches go through.

I'm looking forward to the patch hopefully speeding up the game again but have been enjoying the game with the second beta patch and I'm currently flying along quite nicely at AC Milan after five very inconsistant and frustrating seasons at Everton.

Thanks very much for your efforts.

[retired_dalcar]

rudders10 - I think that's pretty clear from my post!

gederre - there is a data update planned with it, yes, although this is not confirmed as being definite yet, and won't be til the last minute.

Ste123 - that thread is still available, and still sticky, so there is no need.

White Raven - No, the testers do not know the best tactic to win. None of us do! We have different people playing the game in different ways, but one thing is sure with our games - there is no one way to do well.

tedder_road - thanks for you post. The way things work here is that the different areas of the game are split into modules, and different teams of people work in those different areas, with the lead in each area talking to the other leads to ensure it all fits in. A bit like a giant jigsaw puzzle. Those areas are all pretty specialised, so the dev process isn't really a case of taking all, say, the media guys and putting them on a different area to improve that more. Therefore each area inside the game improves each year, rather than throwing the kitchen sink into one specific area.

You have made some valid points though, which will no doubt get noted by the QA guys, and brought up in a future features meeting (if they are not already noted) at which point we vote about what will go into the next game as a "squad".