retired_rayrhi

In order to discuss a concept or an idea, in this case how something behaves or acts, one has to know the nature of that thing or concept in order to discuss its properties. Let's take the golf swing. The golf swing is made up of a selection of elements that have been proved to constitute a successful swing: the grip, the stance, the posture, the back swing, hip movement, head very still, eye on the ball etc. etc.) It's very easy to discuss the golf swing and observe what is right and what is wrong, what is beautiful about it (Tiger Woods), and what is ugly (my swing). Where am I going with this? Well, if you take our whole tactical discussion and truly think about what we are talking about, it's profoundly laughable that all of this time we have been talking about nothing. Zero, nada, nil, nothing. If you want to theorise that x + y + n + c = success, then you have to know what each of the letters of the equation are. It's already common knowledge that we don't know what ANY of the sliders do exactly. Yes, I would go as far as stating that we don't know what ANY of the sliders do.

FM Classroom, we are all sitting there, teacher walks in, tells us all to shut up and immediately asks us all these questions:

What does man-marking do? Errr, marks the person relevant to that position. Does it? What if he's tight marked? Errr, well I'd have to know what man marking does first. What does mentality do? Errrr, makes him pass differently? behave differently? Moves him higher or lower up on pitch? Well what are forward arrows for boy? Errr, don't know. What does the defensive line do? Errr, SI says it moves the defensive line up and down but it clearly doesn't. Errr, Rashidi and Leroy claim that it is explicitly linked to closing down, but it's complicated and illogical. So what DOES closing down do? Errr, well there's an invisible circle that the player will close down in if the opposition comes into it. But what if the defensive line and mentality is set to 1 boy? Errr, then the invisible circle is halved, sir. And what about tempo, boy? Well, the devotees say that the ranters miss all of their chances when tempo is too high, and SI state that it's explicitly linked to passing, but I am sure I have seen Arsenal play a short passing high tempo system on the tele. What about creative freedom? Well the manual says that the higher it is the less your team will adhere to instructions, but I've watched the match a thousand times and they all seem to act the same. So how do you stop your defender scoring an own in the 94th against ten men after repeating the same match 27 times? Err, know it's going to happen and bring him off at half-time.

You see, as comical as this sounds, this is what this forum sounds like to me. At no point have we dealt in fact, which means at no point has anyone spoke the truth. The only thing I can conclude that IS FACT, is the ludicrous shots on goal/goals ratio. That is one thing that you simply can not hide from, whether you think screenshots are conclusive or not. The proof is there, and because the reply is always the same "IT'S YOUR TACTICS", well I've already mentioned that by telling us this, you are telling us NOTHING.

retired_hope

I know how to use a lightswitch, but couldn't tell you how it works. If I switch in one way the light comes on, the other they light goes out.

I say load up your impossible save games, bring it on. If you are correct then it should be very hard to succeed.

How can you say it is not your tactics when you say yourself you don't how they work together.

Shots ratio is a problem for you and others because of your tactics. You continue to post screen shots of stats to prove you points. I have never seen you post a pkm which would give a bit more insight into how your team play.

Posting ideas via a message board is a difficult thing to do. It take consideration and thought, else it leads to confusion.

If I sat down with you for 10 mins and explained how I play the game you might get more insight then 50 posts by me.

Come on if you want proof then lest test, test, test. Experiment and see what we can find out.

That's what I do and I post my conclusions for consideration by other. I may not be right, but people say they are having success with waht I post and they enjoy my terse style which is use to try to minimise ambiguity in my ideas, not truth or falsehood.

Or I could just start bee itching about how great I am tactically, but how the game is fixed to ensure that I don't get too successful.

retired_rayrhi

The bottom line is that it is impossible to implement a tactic that reflects footballing theory quite simply because we don't know what the sliders do (a) independently, and (b) when combined with others. If I placed every single slider to the left, I could still win, but this would hold no value in my game world because in my eyes, enjoyment in FM is implementing a 'real life' approach. Thinking I know how to has all been an illusion since the sliders are not what they seem. Likewise, I could implement your defensive line/closing down theory as successful as it sounds, but it is absolutely illogical and differs substantially from the manual's definition. In other words, I am not going to do it just because it's successful if it holds no logical or realistic value.

And then you have the masterful AI. What on earth is the point in implementing tactics at all if the AI can counter you whenever it sees fit whether it be Watford or Chelsea? I may as well just use the default 4-4-2 system and 'take it on the chin' after I score a 95th minute own goal after having 46 shots on target to the opponents 1. After all, we have concluded that the AI will find a way to counter flaws regardless, thus there is no such thing as a perfect system, which means all tactical creation is in vain. Unless of course you are a tactical genius who knows how to counter the counter to counter the counter—anyone who knows the game of football (I do, I played for Wirral, Merseyside, and I had trials for Everton, but wasn't good enough apparently) knows that it is not a game of chess. TEAMS DO NOT DYNAMICALLY CHANGE STYLES PERIODICALLY. This is very important. This happens in FM though, and it is how the AI has an advantage over the human. SI tell us that the AI has the same choices as the user. Utter rubbish! The AI reacts to the human, so the AI knows how to counter flaws and weaknesses. While these flaws are not obvious to the human (lack of feedback), they are clearly crystal to the AI. Why do we not have this information. On a purely programming level, it probably goes something like this:

Human team: Slider x + y + t + v = n
To counter: AI team must x - f x t to = j

Now, if this code could be translated into human language, then the assistant manager could come into his own here. THE INFORMATION/TECHNOLOGY IS THERE. It has to be, or the AI WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COUNTER US. Is it really a massive feat of programming to translate this to human language?

I AM NOT THE FORUM DEMON!!! I am not trying to fall out with any of you. Leroy, Rashidi, Marseille, Koblok to name a few. I AM A BAST*ARD OF A CYNIC and I love this game as much as the next person. I can completely understand that if you really don't see these things happening in your game world, then of course you are going to dismiss it. The thing is though, what I am seeing is happening to many other folks. Folks like me who are successful too.

retired_rayrhi

Leroy, I would like nothing more than to undertake a mass experiment (I think it's been tried before) where we set all sliders to zero except the one we are testing and build an extensive theory base of tactical implementation. I think it would be a wonderful experience if done in the correct manner, and would do well to cement a few frayed friendships. What say you? Would anyone commit to such a journey?

retired_acivin

I could definitely give this some time. Not doing much atm, summer holidays!

But yea, I am open to help, if you would liek to run the show!

Just let me know :thup:

retired_hope

Arteta,

I know your not the forum demon, nothing you have said has offended me.

My general out look on life and the game are different that is all.

When I encounter something in life that I enjoy, but find difficult I try to understand it, work out what is going on by observing it. It is my determination to find the answer that drives me.

If you are correct then I am wasting my time. You may be right, but I have not encountered any problem in this game that I though could not be analysed to find a solution.

You may not think that the things I have posted relate with what is in the manual or with real football in general. However I disagree. When I read the manual I now apply my experiences to what is their and can see how this relates to my understanding of the tactical controls. It is okay that we disagree, not a problem.

All I want to do is understand how it works. I read other ideas and try to expand and develop them. A classic case of this the closing down thread, which initially started of in a discussion with rashidi in a thread about how the defensive line was useless.

Everyone is different, I have cynical friends too. I work with the most cynical russian guy you could ever meet, so no offence by you are a puppy compared to Serguei.

All im saying is lets have a look at these problems that people are having and see if we as a collective of game players can work out what is causing them. If we all had the same problem I would blame the game as much as you, but the only truth is that we all have different ideas and tactics, the match engine is the only constant.

retired_FaultyFate

Arteta,

It's funny that I ALWAYS agree with you that this game lacks feedback system, yet I look completely differently at "strange" outcomes. Unlike Hammer you never say: "Game cheats because I cannot find a way to overcome things", but I am afraid your frustration bias your judgement. Yes, we don't know how EXACTLY sliders work (though some people seem to have plausible ideas), but if you go through match stats, report, players stats etc. in most cases you can figure out what went wrong. Say I allowed too many crosses (20) and even though my DCs intercepted 18 of them, the other 2 led to goals => my FBs didn't do good job defensively though they got 6-7s because they supported attack well or did not make serious mistakes (in AI interpretation). Notice, on the match stats screen "crosses completed" would be 10% in my example. The thing is it requires time to figure out problem(s), and we often do not want to spend it, especially when we are angry. So a better feedback would save time, but, given that we currently don't have it, imo we have two options a)spend time on detailed analysis at least once in a while or b)accept the fact we don't have time and simply play the game as it is. I honestly hope that next version (or next to the next) will have better feedback, but always remember that it's just a game - it cannot give me something that's not there.

retired_rayrhi

I am not frustrated so frustration can not affect my judgment since I am not frustrated in the first place. It's funny how you point toward these stats you mention, yet when a screenshot of the AI shots on goal/goals ratio (including last minute own goals and other such anomalies) is posted, people are quick to blame the tactic. Your logic does actually make sense, but these stats do not hold as much importance as the shots on goal/goals ratio. A team that has 20 shots on goal versus a team that has 3 or 4 will usually always win. It's fact, look through stats of real games and you will see. Unfortunately, in FM, these stats have no such bearing.

retired_FaultyFate

It's actually very intersting idea, though it needs more detailed thinking how to implement it correctly. I would start from setting creative freedom to zero, as in this case players should always follow instructions, and see how changing one slider's position affects the game...

Sorry, I simply don't have time to do such experiment (it would take me a year to post one update), but I am ready to participate in discussion how to set it up. And if Prince could give it a shot, let's do it.

retired_rayrhi

Well, firstly we would have to decide how to play the match. Would it be sensible to set up a friendly match with two human players with teams of equal(ish) ability? Playing against a human would allow us to set the opposing team's instructions consistently so we could gather a more accurate sample of results. Then, we would probably have to replay the match at least 10 times. I am looking more at observational results in the 2D match engine. The game would obviously have to be played in full, and maybe screenshots could be posted to show evidence? For example, a screenshot of how a player acts with a mentality of 1 and a screenie of a player with mentality 20. Does anyone have any other ideas? Prince, would you be the tester if we provided you with a detailed framework? I could test in the evenings (around 4am GMT) to see if we came up with the same results.