retired_rolando.perez

As much as I try to fathom out why the Does this game cheat? was closed, I cannot. Only Rashidi can answer that. This thread is more a response to his opinion; unfortunately he has forced me to create a whole new thread by closing the original one, which would have been a perfect body in which to respond to him.

First of all, a response to Rashidi. Well done mate. For someone as well respected on these forums as yourself, and as a moderator, one might've expected a little more sense and empathy from you... You argue for the need for constructive arguments, but you fail to realise that it is SI who are sapping this away. We argued in that thread for the need for a) SI to respond in some form and b) a better feedback system. Without 'a' we can't expect 'b', so forgive us for become somewhat disillusioned by the fact SI were nowhere to be seen. You also complained that the thread had become a "bash". In truth, there was one minor altercation amongst a series of thorough, intelligent posts, which, had they not been cut short would no doubt have led to a more productive conclusion. The fact that there is no one consensus with the fans of the game is something that is good for the evolution of the series. Again, without us being anywhere near the SI driving seat, we have no outlet in which to offer our suggestions.

So we turn to the forums. The forums are meant to serve as a place in which fans can democratically discuss the game as broadly or as specifically as they wish. Generally, that means there will be a few hiccups along the way, but nonetheless the outcome should be the same: arguments should be based on their merit, and not on the 'bashes' they may cause. Why a thread with 230 replies and 3043 views was closed then defies all logic - it is clearly a popular, if ambiguous subject that needs to be addressed. I am extremely disappointed in Rashidi's decision.

So what now? Without an area in which to vent our concerns and offer suggestions, I know I am beginning to question whether SI have let their success go to their heads. They probably think 'so what if one fan is unhappy, we'll make our millions from the rest of 'em '. I think the progress made by SI is beginning to really suffer from a lack of a serious competitor in the field - FM doesn't need to evolve if it's the only decent management sim out there... And so do SI care? Do the mods care? Do they ****! And is this game truly a fan's game after all? Absolutely not.

retired_B-Scott

Thats a good post and I empathise with you. The lack of support from SI on tactically related issues (the rest we can all figure out for ourselves) is evident.

I dont know any of the mods myself, but having spent a few months popping my head through the door of this forum, I have seen many threads saying more or less the same thing. Whilst people do indeed have a point, and you are quite right to say SI have left everyone in the wilderness and reliant upon other people prepared to make tactics and theories in order to progress, there are an awful lot of these same threads kicking around, and Im sure this is why the moderator would have curtailed it.

But I do agree with your points regarding free speech and given the few avenues of discussion/feedback I understand your frustrations at having doors closed in your face.

retired_fitnessconnection

Neon - He did say that a new thread could be started if it sufficiently fashioned to show evidence from both sides of the argument as to whether the game cheats or not, so again no need to call peoples scruples unto question here.

Most Mods on here in the past have ruled the boards like little Hitlers, thankfully Rashidi seems to be above that thankfully!.

retired_FaultyFate

I was also a little disappointed that thread "Does this game cheat?" was closed as I thought there were quite a few good ideas and the discussion could become much more productive as most people agreed on main point - we have every right to understand why something has happened without spending hours guessing, trying things just to realise they do not work, etc. I do not want to open a new thread, as I feel they all start to look alike, so here is an idea. Let’s shoot two or three things, which we think need to be improved in the future versions (related to tactic and training to stay with this forum topic). If you feel that some of the suggested improvements are not worth it, let’s discuss them. Say I claim that “…midfielders work hard for each other” hardly translates into “AI team likes to close down often” so we need better interpretation of every phrase in scout report, while someone may think scout reports are obvious and can provide detailed translation (or give link(s) to thread(s) providing such explanation). I can volunteer to summarise things say once a week to keep discussion on track if people find it useful.

Here are my three things.

1.I would like to see a brief summary from my Ass Man after every game Something like “Our decision to close down often didn’t work well because…” and “We did not complete many crosses because our wingers were man marked”. (Btw, 25% crosses completed – is it 1 out of 4 or 5 out of 20? Would be good to know). It would be great if I could save these summaries in notes and sort the notes by teams.


2.I would like to get reports on key mistakes my players made. “Missed interception” is not enough, because I want to know if DC missed header or pass onto feet. 2-D engine does not give me a clue why my GK gave up ball to opposition FC. Is it because he tried to make easy pass an couldn’t make it, or because he tried to play header outside area and it didn’t go well? I cannot see it.

3.I would like to get more from coaches reports. Saying “Player A is useful member of the squad” does not tell me anything. Saying “Despite relatively high concentration Player A makes stupid mistakes during training sessions” is much more informative.

retired_rayrhi

Well said mate! As I was part of the altercation that took place, I can state that it was a mere misunderstanding. I reacted in an overly-sensitive manner to a comedic interpretation of the divide between fans. We are all big boys here, and we have a bit more class than to end a sound discussion in a thuggish manner. Wwfan apologised, I accepted, owned up to my silliness and we move on. I do agree that we had a good dialogue going in that last post, and even neon and I were 'talking'. Shame.

retired_vernicebell

No it's not a fan's game any more. It's a game for theoretical statisticians and people who don't have jobs to do.

Gief playable game out of the box plz!

"The King is Dead, Long Live The King"!

retired_rolando.perez

Thus far it appears there is resounding support for the claim that a) it was wrong to close the initial thread and b) FM isn't a fan game. I am a touch concerned as to whether or not it is worth continuing to post anymore as sensible, productive discussions can be closed for no reason (or at least a false one). I'm not having a pop at Rashidi in general; I just thing he's dropped the ball on this occasion. Oh well, c'est la vie.

As far as kolobok's suggestion goes, I think it is quite a good idea, at the risk of repeating our views from the previous thread. Nonetheless, if Rashidi requires a more formal approach, that is what we will give him. First, I just want to say that I agree with all of kolobok's ideas, if used in moderation. I don't, for example, want my ass man to tell me exactly what to do, but a little more in the way of just what is going wrong would suffice quite nicely. Right, my changes:

1. Better Slider Descriptions
At the moment, we know extremely little about sliders and what they affect. Sure, we can figure a few things out by changing them and then looking at the match and stats and making a judgement over the correlation between slider and effect. However, this is a little tedious, and one can't imagine a real life manager telling his team to play attacking one week, defensive the next, and concluding with the changes. Basically, I don't want to have to play a 'test game' before starting my real one to grasp the ropes.

2. Less AI Anomalies
As those of you who read the original thread will know, my prefered term for the odd occasion in which the AI did something highly suspicious was 'anomaly', which is what I in fact believe they are. I believe they are unintentional pieces of seperate coding coming together unknowingly and producing an unrealistic outcome (like the AI randomly coming back from 3-0 down to win). These should be fix, while both maintaining a random element and guarding against the supertactic.

3. Slider - Attribute Connection
It's something I have only just thought of and perhaps it ties more into 1, but I'm struggling for a 3rd that isn't blatantly obvious. Basically, this would involve feedback regarding which attributes are linked to each slider. For example, we all know Creativity is linked to CF, but what else is. Without this feedback, you could easily buy a player who has 20 Creativity for £20m and then him not work out because high CF has tapped into the other attributes necessary, which he is particularly lacking in. Of course, some of these are positional and some are obvious, but who knows what, if any, sliders go into mentality?

retired_l.a.2476

imho the match engine is not a very close portrayal of real football.
as it is, its purely a computer game, that should be played as such ,not as a real football match.
problem is its the only game with the potential to become a realistic sim.
fm 2007 ability.
ca 150
pa 185

retired_Fiteach

I agree with ALL of you guys here saying that SI maybe just maybe start to be arrogant and dont take count on what most of the people here are saying.

Back to 07 a part for the slider,tattic and AI some things never been even touch.

1)Sellin/Loan players is still impossible to sell players even if they have a superb season to any kind of team ( no realistic at all).
2)Whats the point to add player when you make an offer to buy one if the AI NEVER accept it and we know is a normal thing in RL.
3)Media is pathetic if you give different answer the all team get upset, so you need to give always the same answer....repetitive.


There is more but I cant be bother I stop playing this game will try 08 if there are no change well 30 quid saved for me.

retired_FaultyFate

Neon,

Agree on your comments on sliders. Imo the third point also relates to player's hidden attributes. Therefore, it would be reasonable to ask to make those attributes not so hidden. For example, if player stays on short list for a while and scouted every month by the same scout, that scout should find out more about personality. Same thing with players on my squad - after some time I should know 99% about them.

As for anomalies - I believe better feedback on what went wrong could provide some ideas why those anomalies occur. Let's assume that 50% of anomalies can be handled by human player, using sliders etc, IF he knew why they happened. For example I noticed that if I use Time Wasting to wind up clock, it often leads to mistake by my GK or DCs dialling on ball or back pass from ST to GK. So I stoped using that slider, never see stupid 80 yards back passes anymore, but I could have done it earlier if got tip from ass man, media or anywhere else. Maybe there is something like this that causes other anomalies. The other 50%... well even the best players on earth make very stupid mistakes. I can agree though that it is one thing when Liverpool is able to come back from 3-0 down (remember CL 2005?), and the other when so does Conference team against Man Utd (extreme example).

Terrybecker,

I agree that match engine is not the best one, but on the other hand making it better could require much more powerfull computers.

dingo,

good point on media, but let's leave transfer market to another forum. I think these problems have been widely discussed in Good Player and Team Guide and General Discussion.