arteta is god

To be fair, the more you scout players, the more about the personality is revealed. For example, 'this guy looks up for the big matches'. I have no problem with the scouting system except I don't think the overall estimation is correct. Too many times my top scouts mention a top player is merely decent, and then the guy will go on to be a star at my club. The scout will then say that this guy is indispensable and vital to the 1st team set-up.

I disagree too that the match-engine is not up to scratch. It's revolutionary as far as I am concerned. It creates the ultimate fantasy. I am of the opinion that:

to fully appreciate, understand, and achieve success in this game, one must watch the full match. It only 'seems' like the AI 'cheats' in highlight mode. You know the situation—you switch to key highlights and it 'flicks' to an AI free-kick goal or a cross so perfect that David Beckham looks like Earl Barrett in comparison. If you watch the full match, you can actually diagnose your flaws, and you will see your players respond to your instructions (minus mentality and defensive line that need explaining and/or fixing). The problem is, we don't have the time anymore. THIS IS WHY WE NEED THE FEEDBACK!!! We are too often trying to diagnose our flaws using statistics and maybe action zones. Neon claims heading and crossing percentages are important. 2ndchance and I disagree. 2ndchance and I claim that the shots on target/goals ratio is skewed. Neon might disagree. The point is, we both could be right, we both could be wrong. A game of football is a dynamic game, and tactical implementation depends on what you are seeing with your own eyes. HIGHLIGHTS DO NOT SHOW THE TRUE PORTRAYAL OF A MATCH.

I think the game is stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one side you have the die-hard sim base (analysts, full match observers, scouters, player match-ups, media interactionists), in the middle you have the folk that are somewhere in between, and on the other side you have the folk that want to pick up and play a season in no time. These people may be tactical geniuses or not, but they both want the games to come thick and fast without all the tweaking and worrying about the finer details. As it stands, I feel that the people watching the match in highlight mode have an instant disadvantage. The game has progressed to such a dynamic state, meaning the AI tinkers now to combat you effectively, that without watching the full match, you are not seeing the full picture. It's IMPOSSIBLE even, to diagnose a weakness in your system unless of course you are being completely outplayed possession-wise. Even then, possession tells only a segment of the story. The full match is a wonderful tool for the people that have the time, but I play about an hour or two a day now tops and I don't have the patience to watch every match. COULD THIS BE THE REASON WHY WE FEEL THE GAME CHEATS? Is this the reason why I feel that the AI over-compensates, or could it be that I simply am not changing my formation appropriately, since I am not seeing the game? Without watching the full game, one is at a loss to explain the circumstances leading to a goal. With this in mind, Chand stated that half of the game has developed (the match engine, the AI, player intelligence), but the other half, THE FEEDBACK system has not. A SYSTEM HAS TO BE DEVISED THAT CAN CATER FOR THE FOLK THAT WANT TO PLAY THE GAME IN HIGHLIGHT MODE. This is my main point. I understand that the match is without doubt the most important element or event that takes place in a football week, so the most attention and care should indeed be placed on this. This is fine. At the moment, we can. But what about the rest of us? If we knew what the sliders did, and we had a feedback system, then it would be possible for the rest of us to diagnose our tactical shortcomings and counter the AI like the AI does to us WITHOUT having to watch the full game.

Leroy1883

These attributes are hidden, but they can be determined through the feedback from how the player reacts to different situations.

For example if they are frustrated at something you know they have low temperment and low proffessionalism.

If I meet a person for the first time, I may pickup some of their dominant peronality traits, but I would not be able to have a complete breakdown of what makes them tick. Only after interacting with them over the period of time and observing how they react in certain situations could I possibly be able to determine their personality.

So lets say for arguments sake that the hidden personality traits were made visible in FM2008. How would this change the way that you approch your team talks? You would still have a group of players with different personalies.

I do not want this thread to go the way of the previous one.

Even the title of this one is contentious and I was considering not posting anything at all.

However, debate requires alternate view points to be any good, so I will give you mine.

How many of you read the commentary during a match?

How many of you use the match report facility?

Neon, if you think that it is obvious that creative freedom relates to a players creativity rating then you may need to reconsider if that really is the case, because in my view it is not.

Kolobok, if you noticed that Timewasting caused this and you stopped doing it then you have learnt how to use that slider.

It states clearly in the game manual and in the in game hints and tips that Timewasting used to early is not advised.

I hope you accept what I am saying as my view on the game and if you don't agree with it, refrain from the usual insults, fanboy etc. I do have views on how this game could be improved, I just don't think some of the ways you have suggested so far would benefit the game.

Marseille07

neonlights mate, I was also puzzled as to why the previous thread got closed.

As for the discussion of whether AI cheats or not, it is the devil's proof; we have plenty of fishy situations, such as DeadlyDevice's three-peat-then-12th-place finish. I think Rashidi mentioned my idea that we should play DeadlyDevice's saved game, which obviously is a good way to see whether his failure is something we can reproduce.

In any event, we can't really prove that the AI cheats; the only way to prove it is when SI programmers fess it up. I know they NEVER admit such, because when they do, who is going to buy a "cheating" game?

To conclude, we can discuss if we think the game cheats or not, but always keep in mind that we can't conclude one way or the other. Sadly, the default opinion is that the game does NOT cheat, just like we assume everyone is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

kolobok

Leroy,

As far as I am concerned we are trying to learn from each other, so any opinion is fine. Arteta is right, we are all big boys (or girls) here, so no point to fight over exact phrase or term. So nothing personal in what I write below, and I will appreciate your comments.


As for time wasting, I have never used it before 80ths minutes. The thing is when I played real football we never dialed on ball to waste time. Put it out for throw, shoot from your box to nowhere with aim to conceede a goal kick on opposition side, take some time when opponent fault on you, walk instead of runninig to serve a corner kick, all this kind of tricks. I would spend all time warming bench if I ever tried to pass back to my GK from opposition box. SI appears to think differently. Fine, but tell me about it! Don't make me overcome my old school

I guess most people read comments (conlusion based on many posts here - people refer to comments). But tell me, please, what exactly comment like this means "Team A won't believe they have lost it!". Does it mean my team was just unlucky or it actually means that AI found right tactic, gave up posession on purpose, etc. so it looks like I was better side while I was tactically outclassed? If you know the answer, share please (seriously). If you can only guess, than I propose that instead of trying to tell us something not everybody can understand correctly, SI developed better feedback.

Arteta is right, we can answer many questions by watching full match, but many people do not have time to watch match, experiment with sliders etc. I appreciate your threads on different aspects of the game, and you have done a great job by observing, learning and sharing info with people. There are many others whose threads helpd me and other people a lot. But still, I believe, there are way too many SIMPLE questions that don't have straight answers. Now, do you think irl Sir Alex recieves 1 sentence reports from coaches, scouts or ass man? I doubt it. I do not want this game to become simple or overwhelmed by tons of information. I think winning everything is much less interesting than learning and countering. All I want to see is feedback I would expect to get irl if I, say, was sick and unable to watch a match. Match report give me something, but short summary would serve much better especially for people who do not have time. I play 1-2 hours a day. If I go through match report, next opposition statistic, watch game in full mode, I will be able to play 1 match a day top. I don't think this is fun, so I sacrifice result to play more matches. I am more or less fine with it, other people not.

Yes scouting gives some answers on hidden attributes. But I still do not understand why one player with good attributes does not perform for my team as expected. I gave him wrong instructions? But they are good enough for players with similar attributes. He does not like me, or he has something hidden? Fine, but give me some hints, tips, whatever - I am ready to learn. So far the best option I found in such cases - drop the player and buy one (not necessary a star) I know will perform as I want with exactly the same instructions. I do not like this option! I feel I would end up with almost the same squad no matter which team I pick.

I could continue, that's not a point. My idea is to see what people find most problematic, and see which issues can be solved because others found solutuion, and what could definetely be suggested for the future. Say you know that in one of the threads there is exact definition of each slider position. Share it with Neon! There are too many threads in this forum, so search rarely gives good outcome. People start new threads asking same old questions, and that becomes boring. Etc.

2ndchance

Here's a quick point about timewasting, that is one thing i dont change in my tactic because i have found i dont need to, because my players do it automatically near the end of a game.

So therefore why is it even part of your tactic set-up?.

kolobok

2ndchance,

I actually put it on rarely once, have not touched it since then, and as I mentioned never see stupid back passes, and almost never - DCs or GK dialing on ball. What I do not understand why i had to learn it from tough experience.

azhar123

what the ****....this game is bullshit...what????the fan's game?????? **** u....play 1st......then you will know.....

rashidi1

I personally don't give a whit about people's perceptions of me. I do want the game to improve. I didn't close the thread because there's another point of view. It was closed because it stopped being constructive. Like I said in that thread before I closed it, keep it constructive and it will stay open. The moment I see people bashing each other and insulting one another for having a different point of view. I will close the thread.


A constructive argument has to be based on fact. If you want to develop a case, do so, but have the proof. Screenshots do not make suffcient proof. I have also suggested that people have one save game, apply whatever rules you want and then see whether the same"Cheat" can be replicated.

Software development is not exact science. Its not something I'm unfamiliar with considering my line of work. However, I do feel for programmers when people make sweeping statements. These boys want the game to improve just as badly as you.

The forums are a good avenue, but if not managed properly, a good argument without due concern for the facts can easily turn into an ugly bash. AND THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN HERE.

SI is not above the public, however you have to be fair to them too. I encourage people to put forth their point of view and to do it constructively with due concern for other points of view. Remember there are always two sides to a coin

rashidi1

You have been warned.

andycleland

Having just read through this post, I feel I have to say it is a great read. There are constructive comments made and some interesting ponits raised.

I do like the idea that there neds to be more feedback available for those that require it. This would enable the game to appeal to a broader range of gamers.

As someone who has never played the game at any level and had only ever being to one match. I enjoy this game as it allows me to pursue a fantasy. But as a football novice without the help of this forum I would have left this game a long time ago. This said, I would like to see and option where I could determine the amount of "feedback" the game gave me about my performance. Whether it be the AssMan quietly tapping me on my methaphoric shoulder and telling me why certain players underperformed or not. Or in an after match summary I received tips on why my tactic performed a certain way. If this option was available, with the ability to "dial" it up or down depending on your experience or as you become more comfortable with the game, would be a nice feature to help bring along players of all abilities.