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Originally posted by fmj:
Thank you, bearsy, for a well written and thoughtful post! It would be nice if the forum had more of these!
I'm afraid I have to disagree though. Yes, the offers by the AI are very annoying, but they happen in real life as well. The most obvious example would be the shameless way in which Real Madrid keep trying to unsettle players.
More to the point perhaps is the problems the introduction of your system would introduce. For instance: anyone who rotates his players wouldn't be able to nominate any indispensable players. Also, the tier system seems very static. In the current system, it is already very hard to get a player from a big team as a smaller team or even a big team from a smaller competition. As someone in this thread mentioned, it feels absolutely ridiculous that teams like Middlesborough (no offense to fans) could unsettle players of teams like Lazio. But, sadly, that is often the case in real life as well. Although by any reasonable standard Lazio is a bigger club than Middlesborough, the latter do play in the Premiership. And however you may feel about the objective strengths of the Serie A versus the Premiership, the latter does have a lot more money to burn especially in terms of wages. So the players join those clubs. In your system, this would become far more complicated by all these tiers. Establishing to what tier a team belongs will be a huge mess and automatic re=tier-ing even more so! After all, suppose I play, say, Napoli and win the Serie A 2 times in a row, what tier do I then belong to? Am I still a newly promoted club that happens to do very well? Am I a new upstart (remember Napoli was re-formed after bankruptcy) that does well? Or am I the former club of Maradona, gloriously risen from the ashes like the phoenix of old? These are not easy things to decide on!
And all that to remove annoying offers? Personally I think that is a bit much!
So to me at least, the current system seems to be very realistic, although that doesn't make it less annoying. Especially if you don't play in the Premiership/England.
Thanks for the response. Ok firstly i'll start with Napoli. Given that they have struggled recently financially I doubt they could offer wages that would justify a high enough tier placement. However, given that Maradona was such a huge star for them and such the growth of reputation associated with such a huge star that would warrant Napoli, in my opinion, of a tier placing of 4th or 5th tier.
Obviously if they won the league twice in a row they would jump up a tier or two, but it would take a significant amount of years to break into the top tier. Remember Man U, Real, Barcelona have dominated their domestic leagues over a great period of time. All have the financial muscle to be able to spend 30m each and every preseason.
Even if you won the league with Napoli for two seasons, you probably wouldn't(in real life anyway) have 30m + to spend every season. Take Lazio for example they spent millions in the 90s. Won the league with Eriksson yet despite their success drifted away and would have no more than a third tier rating.
As for the rotations policies affecting how managers view their players. I take your point on board, however if we take the opposing arguement that if a player plays in every match then they become indispensible, then I would disagree. Take Arsenal. Fabregas and Flamini have played in every league game this season (I think). Now who is indispensible? Certainly not Flamini. He could be replaced by many other players of a similar standard. Could Fabregas be easily replaced? Playing in every game does not make a player indispensible, just as missing the odd game against inferior opposition means that they are simply squad rotation or important first teamers.
What the top managers, who are able to shuffle the pack, tend to do is play their indispensible players in most matches and certainly in the big games and rest them in the little games against the lower teams and the cup competitions. Rooney will play in the majority of games that he is available for, as will Ronaldo. Both I would consider as Indispensible, yet both will experience squad rotation at some point.
The exception to the rule is Benitez, and to be honest that seems to be his downfall. The only player in Liverpool who will play in the big games and also the majority of the matches is Gerrard. He is the only indispensible player. The rest would be considered as important first teamers, like Carragher, or squad rotation players like Pennant. Benitez's problem is that he doesn't let his truely top players become more than squad players. Torres could become the Rooney of Liverpool and could become as indispensible as Gerrard, yet he just won't select him on a regular enough basis.
Anyway i must cook the dinner, but I am enjoying the debate
Originally posted by adamc81:
I agree with your initial post Bearsy, whilst of course there are the odd exceptions of key players being sold from an elite club to a slightly lower stature in real life; its far too frequent in FM.
Also many times has a chairman accepted a bid over the top of my head because of it being an offer too good to refuse despite me having over £100mil in the bank and a £70mil transfer kitty etc. Its pretty infuriating considering your given all that money to find a player to replace him.
I also find that the AI make strange decisions in the transfer market, paying £15mil plus for players that just sit in there reserves etc. I once sold a back up left back for £13mil, only for him to be 3rd choice at Chelsea and for him not to play a game and go for under £4mil the next season.
I do disagree with your point somewhat about top clubs selling prospects though. Sure if there a top top star then they will be kept and nutured. If a young talent isnt going to get games at a top club though they will most likely be sold despite having great potential. The likes of Bentley, Reina, Pennant and Carson spring to mind and also a certain Samuel Eto'o sold by Madrid to Barca for a pretty low sum considering his natural talent as a youth.
Would be great to have smarter AI regarding transfers to keep you on your toes at the top, would certainly add to the game longevity.
Some very good points, especially the younger players with potential. My main gripe is the fact I have to pay way over the odds for anyone's squad player and the fact that the AI won't recognise that they have to pay top whack for my 1st teamers or indispensible players.
In my opinion the tranfer system has improved greatly this year, howver there are far too many issues with squad managment, some highlighted by yourself, that still need to be resolved. Just wish I hadn't been moaning about these sort of things since FM05
The transfer system seems deeply flawed in my opinion.
The biggest problem being the availability of far too much money in certain leagues.
It is far too easy to unsettle a player at a big club.
Vidic (the example quoted above) should not be easily unsettled if he is an important first team regular at a club the status of Man U.
This shows that the status of a club and the importance of a player is not taken into account.
The PA of players seems to be too easily figured out by ai scouts too. I have noticed crazy bids for youngsters. Someone posted a US$102m bid for a 19 yr old goalkeeper in another thread.
Try selling any player other than major stars in your game. LLM it is impossible to even give players away. Even clubs like Barca could not offload their deadwood (even free).
Rivals selling to each other happens far too often too. In real life, how often do players switch to a fierce rival ? I can think of a few, but in the game it is pretty regular. Bids from rivals are even more regular and annoying. Should not the fans and chairman be saying something about this ? 'We don't want X teams castoffs' 'I forbid you from selling Y player to our closest rival, no matter what money they offer'.
The board is eager enough to step in when a big money offer comes at most clubs (to accept it over the managers head), so why not the other way too. If the happiness of the player is not affected.....
As has been said, most star players that have left high profile clubs have either wanted to go themselves, had a massive bid accepted, fallen out of favour or become surplus due to a new signing. It is rare for a 1st team regular to be sold at face value just because another team of similar stature wants him.
As for the £100m bids for players, why is the chairman allowing them ? These sort of bids should be extremely rare or not at all. Very few clubs should be in a financial position to bid silly money for star players. At the moment this is not the case. Each new seasons transfer budgets seem crazy for every club I have played so far.
In some leagues there is just too much money available. This leads to every club chasing the same few players instead of them lowering their sights to less valued ones. The end result being silly transfer fees for a few players and no other players being sold at all.
Hopefully SI will look at the transfers and try to make it better.
All players must have a price that the club will accept.
In some cases that price should be out of reach for all but 2 or 3 clubs.
Not all players can be sold. Some deadwood may never attract a fee.
At the moment, the vast majority of players in the world cannot attract a fee.
It seems that EVERY club has too much cash and too much ambition.(Relative to their size and division). They ALL want the same small group of players. All other players tend to be ignored.
Vidic (the example quoted above) should not be easily unsettled if he is an important first team regular at a club the status of Man U.
This shows that the status of a club and the importance of a player is not taken into account.
I am very much in agreement.
Quote:
The PA of players seems to be too easily figured out by ai scouts too. I have noticed crazy bids for youngsters. Someone posted a US$102m bid for a 19 yr old goalkeeper in another thread.
Again i much agree.
Quote:
In some leagues there is just too much money available. This leads to every club chasing the same few players instead of them lowering their sights to less valued ones. The end result being silly transfer fees for a few players and no other players being sold at all.
To be honest I would argue that the fact that there is so much money in some leagues is because of the prices teams have to pay for their squad players and hot prospects. If we could pay reasonable prices for these types of players then there would be much less money flying around.
Quote:
All players must have a price that the club will accept.
I would tend to agree. If Abrahmovic went up to ANY team and bid 80m for ANY player i doubt he would get turned down. Lets be honest here. A bid of 60m is more than likely to get accepted for all the top stars. But where the transfers should fall down is on whether the players themselves would fancy a move.
An annoying thing I've noticed in FM is that clubs (specially english) are ready to pay insane prices for decent players.
I've played mainly as Arsenal and have been able to offload players like Song, Diaby, Gilberto Silva, Diarra for transfers fees around £20-40M including +50% next transfer clause. This to me is quite retarded if not totaly insane
If i'm not totaly wrong the highest transfer fee record is around £50M? Not sure but anways. It's alot of money...
Originally posted by Phastari:
Very intressting topic!
An annoying thing I've noticed in FM is that clubs (specially english) are ready to pay insane prices for decent players.
If i'm not totaly wrong the highest transfer fee record is around £50M? Not sure but anways. It's alot of money...
I completely agree after having played a number of games throughout the Championship and below. Of course such transfer activity is facilitated by the fact that the game GENERATES TOO MUCH MONEY !! My current game has seen me job hop over 2 seasons to be managing Wolves in the Championship. Now at the start of Season 3 many Championship clubs are offering OVER £10MILLION to sign players !! To be brief about the issues :
1 - Average attendances are too high across UK leagues and attendances go up too much and too quickly for moderate success - generating too much revenue.
2 - This cash bonanza facilitates too many stadium expansions in the game - which of course then compounds the issue generating even more cash.
3 - General expenses, agent fees, finance & debt costs, etc are too low in the economy model so profits are too high.
4 - Manager A.I. is a bit off in using transfer funds, especially for sub-premiership clubs, where an average squad would benefit more from say 4 good first team signings rather than 1 key player.
This overheating economy model has been present for a long time not just FM08. Yet again before I start my game proper next week after the patch I am going to have to go in and adjust the balances and debts of ALL 92 CLUBS in order to get a more realistic 5 year game before it all goes crazy again. ( Yes, I am that sad ).
Oh, and don't get me started on the hard wired +/- 25% wage changes for promotion and relegation which nobody seems to mention but to me is abolutely crazy and could only have been an attempted solution to this issue . How many people do you know who would accept a 25% salary cut for doing the same job and not even moan !!!
Why are people moaning that they have too much money?! If I had as much as some of you guys are claiming to have, then I'd me loving it not moaning about it!
Originally posted by Joe 007:
Why are people moaning that they have too much money?! If I had as much as some of you guys are claiming to have, then I'd me loving it not moaning about it!
in order to get a more realistic 5 year game before it all goes crazy again. ( Yes, I am that sad 
. How many people do you know who would accept a 25% salary cut for doing the same job and not even moan !!!
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