retired_naidkaad

Based on their financial muscle and reputation of the scottish league i would suggest around 3rd or 4th tier.

retired_naidkaad

How kind.

retired_naidkaad

First of all the teams listed in my top tier happen to be the exact top 5 teams as ranked in the FM database. There is a big gap then to Liverpool and Asenal, though the top 5 are the only ones with a reputation of greater than 9000.

retired_nedim

Yeah, but rep is slightly different. Its takes into account the club following in countries. Manchester United is massive in America and China. So they have a bigger repuation then Arsenal, who havent heavily promoted themselves theres.

However, as nearly all top players come from places that arent China and America.... you can see how it has much less baring there.

Seriously, Liverpool and Arsenal are tier one. As are Valencia. I'm not sure on how badly the mixing fiasco is going to hurt Juventus, but I'd still probably put them in there too.

retired_samiam

I agree with Flair actually, the basic idea had a small amount of merit, but your examples and tiering and opinions about players were way off the mark, and had no real basis in real life.

You cannot blame them for trying. They are simply testing you, to see if they can get a bargain. You have several options. Negotiate to a higher value, reject the bid, or accept the bid. If you reject, they may come back with a higher bid. That's how transfers work. They may also have been trying to unsettle your player, making it known they want him, so the player starts thinking about that team and decides he wants to leave, in which case you may be forced to accept a lower bid. It's a good, clever tactic by the AI, and one I'm sure you have used, or should be using, yourself.


That's ridiculous logic. I don't agree with your categorising but I'll let that slide because I'm sure it was done simply for examples sake. Players don't want to move clubs because they want to be part of a team in a higher "tier". There are a million reasons, such as location of team, players personality, loyalty, rivalries between teams, players history, current players playing for a team in his position, his opinion and relationship with the prospective new manager, his own ambitions, etc etc.

It is for some of these reasons that Steven Gerrard will never entertain the thought of moving to Manchester United or Chelsea, even though by your logic, Liverpool are a 2nd tier team and Chelsea are a 1st tier.

It also takes into account the history and relationship between a club and the player. It is for this reason that Liverpool will probably never accept a £75m bid from Manchester United for Steven Gerrard, and it's also for this reason that Man United would never make the offer.

In-game, perhaps coding club relationships such as this is a little complex, so Liverpool may very well accept a bid from United, but Gerrard is highly unlikely to accept terms.


I'll quickly stop you there. You can't categorise by "famous-ness". In real life, Barcelona may be thinking about selling Ronaldinho if the right bid came in. The only thing that should determine indispensibleness is current form. Not past form, but current form.


Again, you seem to think that a player always wants to play for a bigger club. Even if you admit this isn't always the case, you seem to think that most players want to. Even this isn't true. Some players are happy at a certain level, and would move if a bid came in, but wouldn't specifically set out to demand a move.

Also, a lot of players have loyalty and pride in a task of seeing if they can help a "lower-tier team" become bigger, get into Europe, or win a trophy. Alan Shearer at Newcastle could have moved to Manchester United before choosing Newcastle, and I'm sure he attracted interest while at Newcastle, but he chose to stay and try and win something. He is nowhere near an isolated case.

Also, in the case of Micah Richards, I highly doubt any sort of bid would have been accepted by Manchester City, and I doubt Richards could have left the club. Another thing the player might take into account is his own age. Richards may decide he is still young and wants to continue to develop at his current club. In FM, this is sometimes reflected by a player saying "he wants to wait until the end of the season before deciding". So, don't assume it's an automatic thing that a player wants to move higher up the footballing ladder instantly.


I understand your point, but a quick comment about the players you've chosen to illustrate it. Some of those players should be categorised as "Never going to leave". I'd bet my house that Scholes will never leave Manchester United, not even if a £100m bid came in.


At this current time, Fergie would never accept £20m for Vidic. The partnership between Vidic and Ferdinand is the best in the Premier League right now, and they are a big reason why Fergie seems confident of universal success this season. If Ferdinand is worth £30m+, then Vidic is at least his equal. Also, Fergie doesn't have a ready made Vidic replacement, and it would take time to gel a new face, so I don't think £20m would be accepted.

Again, a lot of factors need to be considered, especially the thoughts about replacements, and how the loss of a player would affect the rest of the team, and the season.

If United won the Treble this season and earned £70m in prize money (which sounds a lot, but is probably attainable), then a big reason might be the form of Vidic.

If United sell Vidic now for £20m, but win nothing, then they've lost out on £50m and they're a player short. It's a big difference.


Never in this world would Arsenal accept a bid of £20m for Toure, or Van Persie. Same for Liverpool and Carragher. Jamie Carragher should have the same sort of "never leave" status as Scholes.

Also, there is a difference between Arsenal accepting £16m for Henry, and accepting £20m for Toure. 1) Henry wanted to go, and Arsenal were concerned about his form if he was forced to stay. 2) Arsenal had a belief that they had replacements ready in the form of Van Persie, Adebayor, and possibly Walcott and Da Silva. 3) Toure is relatively new to Arsenal, at a young age and hasn't expressed a desire for another team. 4) Toure (or Van Persie or Fabregas for that matter) are the future of the club. Henry reflected the present/past. There is no logical reason to sell a club's future.


Bogarde is a totally different situation to Solskjaer due to the histories of the players at the club. I don't know for a fact, but I suspect Bogarde was fairly happy to sit around and pick up a paycheck, whereas Solskjaer was injured, and had played a massive part in United's history so was being kept on as a backup player because 1) He was still a very decent player when fit, 2) He was involved in coaching and 3) Possibly out of a sense of sentiment because of past services.



Anyway, your basic idea of having a loose structure in place regarding teams standings is decent. It should be based on reputation, current form, and desirability.

I agree that receiving an offer of £8.1m for a indispensible £8.25m valued player is annoying, but you have the option of rejecting it, and you probably won't receive many after that.

retired_naidkaad

Ok. Good to know

RisingTide

Don't think that's a good idea. The player should react to how well you stick to your word and become angry when they are played far less than you'd promised them (this is how it's implemented now in the game iirc).

But, players (especially goalies) should accept their 'backup' and 'rotation' statuses. Also, not every young players is like Bentley, who'd probably have gotten his change at Arsenal if he'd be patient enough. Some players are content to collect their pay checks and wait for a slim change (though, in this instance, I think Bentley made the correct decision by moving to the Rovers).

One thing I miss in the game in regards to these transfers: when a player really wants to leave the club (for whatever reason), he almost always goes. And for a reasonable price (a la Robben or Chivu). Not every transfer will unfold like Hargreaves' to Manchester or Essien to Chelsea.

retired_2162001

Thank you, bearsy, for a well written and thoughtful post! It would be nice if the forum had more of these!
I'm afraid I have to disagree though. Yes, the offers by the AI are very annoying, but they happen in real life as well. The most obvious example would be the shameless way in which Real Madrid keep trying to unsettle players.
More to the point perhaps is the problems the introduction of your system would introduce. For instance: anyone who rotates his players wouldn't be able to nominate any indispensable players. Also, the tier system seems very static. In the current system, it is already very hard to get a player from a big team as a smaller team or even a big team from a smaller competition. As someone in this thread mentioned, it feels absolutely ridiculous that teams like Middlesborough (no offense to fans) could unsettle players of teams like Lazio. But, sadly, that is often the case in real life as well. Although by any reasonable standard Lazio is a bigger club than Middlesborough, the latter do play in the Premiership. And however you may feel about the objective strengths of the Serie A versus the Premiership, the latter does have a lot more money to burn especially in terms of wages. So the players join those clubs. In your system, this would become far more complicated by all these tiers. Establishing to what tier a team belongs will be a huge mess and automatic re=tier-ing even more so! After all, suppose I play, say, Napoli and win the Serie A 2 times in a row, what tier do I then belong to? Am I still a newly promoted club that happens to do very well? Am I a new upstart (remember Napoli was re-formed after bankruptcy) that does well? Or am I the former club of Maradona, gloriously risen from the ashes like the phoenix of old? These are not easy things to decide on!
And all that to remove annoying offers? Personally I think that is a bit much!

So to me at least, the current system seems to be very realistic, although that doesn't make it less annoying. Especially if you don't play in the Premiership/England.

retired_naidkaad

Don't think that's a good idea. The player should react to how well you stick to your word and become angry when they are played far less than you'd promised them (this is how it's implemented now in the game iirc).

But, players (especially goalies) should accept their 'backup' and 'rotation' statuses. Also, not every young players is like Bentley, who'd probably have gotten his change at Arsenal if he'd be patient enough. Some players are content to collect their pay checks and wait for a slim change (though, in this instance, I think Bentley made the correct decision by moving to the Rovers).

One thing I miss in the game in regards to these transfers: when a player really wants to leave the club (for whatever reason), he almost always goes. And for a reasonable price (a la Robben or Chivu). Not every transfer will unfold like Hargreaves' to Manchester or Essien to Chelsea. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah i agree. It was really just a half baked idea that i came up with, while on a rant, and by the time i had finished typing i had agreed that it was a pretty pants idea.

retired_skuboyama

I agree with your initial post Bearsy, whilst of course there are the odd exceptions of key players being sold from an elite club to a slightly lower stature in real life; its far too frequent in FM.

Also many times has a chairman accepted a bid over the top of my head because of it being an offer too good to refuse despite me having over £100mil in the bank and a £70mil transfer kitty etc. Its pretty infuriating considering your given all that money to find a player to replace him.

I also find that the AI make strange decisions in the transfer market, paying £15mil plus for players that just sit in there reserves etc. I once sold a back up left back for £13mil, only for him to be 3rd choice at Chelsea and for him not to play a game and go for under £4mil the next season.

I do disagree with your point somewhat about top clubs selling prospects though. Sure if there a top top star then they will be kept and nutured. If a young talent isnt going to get games at a top club though they will most likely be sold despite having great potential. The likes of Bentley, Reina, Pennant and Carson spring to mind and also a certain Samuel Eto'o sold by Madrid to Barca for a pretty low sum considering his natural talent as a youth.

Would be great to have smarter AI regarding transfers to keep you on your toes at the top, would certainly add to the game longevity.