Realism=unplayability??

retired_romey · 12-21-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nostromo:

im not sure the game is getting closer to reality. if anything, it is drifting away from it.

Well this is certainly a slippery subject I agree.

But assume as a thought experiment that SI did through some magic actually perfect the thing. I assume that they would all be hung.

zib · 12-21-2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gMoses:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Nostromo:

im not sure the game is getting closer to reality. if anything, it is drifting away from it.

Well this is certainly a slippery subject I agree.

But assume as a thought experiment that SI did through some magic actually perfect the thing. I assume that they would all be hung. </BLOCKQUOTE>

retired_dego72 · 12-21-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gMoses:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by George Graham:

It because SI are damned in that we all have an opinion and a real life reference point to the content of the game.

There are games that are far less complex and buggier than FM- yet because they are abstract and have no real world reference for its players they get away with it.

This is pretty much the crux of the issue, but because SI have chosen FM to be a simulation then they will of course continue down this path.

But the game getting closer to reality isnt why people complain- its when it departs from that, or people perceive it to (as lets face it our moans are not always right).

And finally back to the point of my post!!!

But I take issue with your last statement on a philisopical point.

To say the game departs from reality assumes that it was at some point there. If that were the case I could see why people complain.

In fact year by year the game gets closer to reality. (Maybe it's 20% there now but we could debate this.) But my original point is that with each step closer you only reveal deeper flaws. Hence the debate gets angrier. </BLOCKQUOTE>

To say the game departs from reality doesnt assume it was ever there- its just a turn of phrase. Theres no deep meaning or philosophical point to be made here.

Theres nothing startling about your point that some fixes reveal more flaws- we all know this, in particular with reference to the match engine.

Regardless of this people are angry not with the nature of the issues or the reasons they exist, more that the game has been twice released in a pretty poor state.

This is especially because the issues were known before release, but thats a business decision that SI and Sega have made and one that imo the consumer has good reason to be frustrated about.

In the past we have had similar issues but imo the fixes have appeared earlier and therefore the community has been appeased.

This why people get angry and frustrated- not because improvements in realism sometimes have a detrimental domino effect. After all ANY change in the game can have this effect- not just ones that seek to improve how realistic the game is.

retired_valpal · 12-21-2007, 05:58 PM

The only way to improve the game is by raising these issues and bringing them to the attention of SI. I played the demo of FM08 and decided it was appalling so stuck with FM07 in the hope that FM09 would be an improvement (as a student I can't afford a new game every year anyway)

I have seen nothing but complaints on these forums since 08's release so I presume that the game hasn't been improved much since it came out, and I have to say that isn't really good enough. The game should not have been released in the state it was and the over reliance on patches doesn't help improve the game for its original release.

I appriciate the usefulness of patches but for me they seem to have become an escape clause for releasing games which aren't ready. Myself I would be all in favour of a 2 year release just before the start of the season, and perhaps a data update (which would not be free) every xmas. I know the arguement is that SI need the revenue of a new release every year, but perhaps a data update kind of release - like we used to get in the days of CM2 and CM3 - would still give SI the needed funds without having to try and release the game with tonnes of new features every year without fixing previous errors.

I know I'd rather it be this way, I was quite happy in the days of CM2/3 and never noticed so many bugs.

These are just my thoughts, feel free to shoot me down!

zib · 12-21-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmyjazz1983:
The only way to improve the game is by raising these issues and bringing them to the attention of SI. I played the demo of FM08 and decided it was appalling so stuck with FM07 in the hope that FM09 would be an improvement (as a student I can't afford a new game every year anyway)

I have seen nothing but complaints on these forums since 08's release so I presume that the game hasn't been improved much since it came out, and I have to say that isn't really good enough. The game should not have been released in the state it was and the over reliance on patches doesn't help improve the game for its original release.

I appriciate the usefulness of patches but for me they seem to have become an escape clause for releasing games which aren't ready. Myself I would be all in favour of a 2 year release just before the start of the season, and perhaps a data update (which would not be free) every xmas. I know the arguement is that SI need the revenue of a new release every year, but perhaps a data update kind of release - like we used to get in the days of CM2 and CM3 - would still give SI the needed funds without having to try and release the game with tonnes of new features every year without fixing previous errors.

I know I'd rather it be this way, I was quite happy in the days of CM2/3 and never noticed so many bugs.

These are just my thoughts, feel free to shoot me down!

i want to but you actually make sense..why oh why?!?!?!?!?!?

retired_dego72 · 12-21-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmyjazz1983:
The only way to improve the game is by raising these issues and bringing them to the attention of SI. I played the demo of FM08 and decided it was appalling so stuck with FM07 in the hope that FM09 would be an improvement (as a student I can't afford a new game every year anyway)

I have seen nothing but complaints on these forums since 08's release so I presume that the game hasn't been improved much since it came out, and I have to say that isn't really good enough. The game should not have been released in the state it was and the over reliance on patches doesn't help improve the game for its original release.

I appriciate the usefulness of patches but for me they seem to have become an escape clause for releasing games which aren't ready. Myself I would be all in favour of a 2 year release just before the start of the season, and perhaps a data update (which would not be free) every xmas. I know the arguement is that SI need the revenue of a new release every year, but perhaps a data update kind of release - like we used to get in the days of CM2 and CM3 - would still give SI the needed funds without having to try and release the game with tonnes of new features every year without fixing previous errors.

I know I'd rather it be this way, I was quite happy in the days of CM2/3 and never noticed so many bugs.

These are just my thoughts, feel free to shoot me down!

Sadly thats PC gaming for you- and now console gaming too as consoles get masses of storage.

On a positive note- I think FM08 is worth getting.

Yes, its got some issues that make the match engine at times unbearable, but so did FM07 even after 7.0.2.

On the plus side I feel that the match engine as a whole plays a very good game of football- and replicates changes of tempo/pace very well.

Its not all doom and gloom- and using the beta patch 1 the game is fun, especially if you can get by the number of goals scored, although this is something you can fix with tactics, not that a workaround is good enough as the final solution.

But really take the negativity on here as being frustration at the wait for a patch that fixes the match engine issues, and not neccessarily because FM08 is an absolute stinker- because imo its not.

PWRLIFT · 12-21-2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmyjazz1983:
The only way to improve the game is by raising these issues and bringing them to the attention of SI. I played the demo of FM08 and decided it was appalling so stuck with FM07 in the hope that FM09 would be an improvement (as a student I can't afford a new game every year anyway)

I have seen nothing but complaints on these forums since 08's release so I presume that the game hasn't been improved much since it came out, and I have to say that isn't really good enough. The game should not have been released in the state it was and the over reliance on patches doesn't help improve the game for its original release.

I appriciate the usefulness of patches but for me they seem to have become an escape clause for releasing games which aren't ready. Myself I would be all in favour of a 2 year release just before the start of the season, and perhaps a data update (which would not be free) every xmas. I know the arguement is that SI need the revenue of a new release every year, but perhaps a data update kind of release - like we used to get in the days of CM2 and CM3 - would still give SI the needed funds without having to try and release the game with tonnes of new features every year without fixing previous errors.

I know I'd rather it be this way, I was quite happy in the days of CM2/3 and never noticed so many bugs.

These are just my thoughts, feel free to shoot me down!

I dont think anyone would have any complaints with people raising issues with the game, but for gods sake do it in the right place. Post on the bugs forum, file a bug report. Dont come on a forum entitled 'general questions' and moan, that achieves nothing but to clutter up what should be a place for people to help each other answer questions

PWRLIFT · 12-21-2007, 06:09 PM

Sorry Jimmyjazz that looks like im having a go at you. I meant that as a general comment for the constant moaners

retired_romey · 12-21-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by George Graham:

To say the game departs from reality doesnt assume it was ever there- its just a turn of phrase. Theres no deep meaning or philosophical point to be made here.

Theres nothing startling about your point that some fixes reveal more flaws- we all know this, in particular with reference to the match engine.

Regardless of this people are angry not with the nature of the issues or the reasons they exist, more that the game has been twice released in a pretty poor state.

This is especially because the issues were known before release, but thats a business decision that SI and Sega have made and one that imo the consumer has good reason to be frustrated about.

In the past we have had similar issues but imo the fixes have appeared earlier and therefore the community has been appeased.

This why people get angry and frustrated- not because improvements in realism sometimes have a detrimental domino effect. After all ANY change in the game can have this effect- not just ones that seek to improve how realistic the game is.

But I was making a general philisopical point which is underscored by the rapid angry responses to my point.

I get frustrated with the game on occasion and there are some things that I would like changed. But while I may sometimes feel angry I try to keep in mind the quality of the game and the difficulty of trying to get ever closer to a "perfect" simulation.

retired_mixxster · 12-21-2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr_Know_it_all:
Why can't we all just get off SI's backs

They work tirelessly all year round to provide us with a new game each winter; yet some of us constantly complain about the faults.

Why can't we just praise the good features and learn to live with the moderate ones...the bugs just provide us with a harder challenge.
After all, i thought some of you would be exhilirated by the 1-v-1 bug, seen as you all used to complain about how easy it is :p

The bugs just provide us with a harder challenge????

You are really a mental case, aren't you?

Realism=unplayability??

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Realism=unplayability??