retired_bantam71

Hiya, first post coming up, so apologies if .. etc,etc

Recently I've been seeing some strange UIs available in the in-match panels, that provide an indication as to how the match day AI works. These UIs are called the debug and the control panel ; they appear intermittently during the game but I havent figured out how to cause them consistently.

I dont see any posts on this subject, so thought I'd post as a FYI.

The control panel provides real-time readouts of a number of internal game variables. The most interesting appear to be current_key_incident.first_event_index(CKI) and current_number_of_event(CNE).

Essentially CNE is a sequential counter taking you through the game, whilst CKI tells you when the next goal will be scored.
The AI predetermines in advance (probably during the setting up game dialogue) if and when the CKI will be, although there's no indication as to who will score or how many goals there will be in total. I dont know what basis it uses to determine the CKI.
The game appears to play out in the 2D engine arbitrarily, but then as it approaches the CKI the game starts from a suitable dead-ball situation and runs through to the goal. It then chooses the next CKI, if there is one and continues. Also, if you change tactics then a new CKI is generated, although you cant see whether you've changed the CKI to be in your favour or not.

Why do I think that this suggests that the AI doesnt cheat ? Because I've played a game thats started with no CKI ( presumably indicative of a 0-0 ? ) and continually made slight tactical tweaks until I've created a CKI, and then gone on to win the game....

...but I suppose it depends upon your definition of cheating.

retired_bantam71

.. and here's some screenshots of what I am talking about...

retired_bantam71

sorry, image upload failed, try these links

CNE Approaches CKI

2secs later, goal

retired_kellyk

You're cheating

retired_hope

Interesting discovery Hatman.

What would be really interesting would be to see if the CKI ever changes due to AI changes, say for when it goes 4-2-4.

I'm not sure whether it will or not.

If it does change then it indicates that the AI is reactive to your tactics.

If it doesn't then that would indicate to me that any changes the AI make are based purely on how the match is going with some set routines to change how they play.

I would be more inclined to expect the later.

retired_FaultyFate

Interesting. I will check it out. Good discovery :thup:

retired_rayrhi

What is this? I am not sure I understand exactly what you are talking about. How did you get this information to appear on your screen? This happened to me once and I was most confused.

retired_rayrhi

Alright, I actually made the effort to read the post carefully.

We've always known that the match is calculated before the highlights run. I'm not sure if this is really proving or disproving whether the AI cheats or not. We are merely seeing what we already know, in action. The match is updated after every change is made. Would you care to elaborate further?...

retired_bantam71

Yep, we are seeing the game playing out what it has already pre-calculated, and it recalculates each time you tweak.

When I first saw these diagnostic screens I could find no reference of them in the forum, so I initially wanted to log as a reference should anyone else come a-looking.

What does it prove ? I'm wary of making any declarations, and cheating ( whether human or AI ) means different things to each and every one of us.
What I'm simply suggesting is a counter to complaints of 'the AI cheated , it decided I was going to loose, it was fate'.
Yes, it decides...but you can change that decision, you CAN win each game.

(it just might be bloody difficult

retired_jacque90

Good find, Hatman. Thank you. Yet another thing to consider.

Yes, initially and conceptually I agree. It's as possible to win each game as it is to lose them. But I wouldn't assert categorically that simply because the engine recalculates upon changes then it necessarily follows that you can will all games. Don't think we know enough about these CKIs to assert that.

Basically, just because new CKIs are added or removed every time a change is made doesn't mean the chance to win is there for every game. The engine could very well be picking favorable CKIs as triggered by your tweaking on those games that you 'have to lose' (huge quotes). Which doesn't necessarily mean 'cheating', mind you. It'd be doing the same thing we do - adapting to changes.

The fact that new CKIs are added upon tweaking simply means that the AI is adapting. Problem is, without knowing the CKIs from the inside, we don't know what it's adapting to, and what it's adapting towards. It could be that it's generating the exact CKIs needed to beat you (of course, along with maybe some CKIs that won't have any effect, or even be harmful. But we don't know that).

After all, in a poker game it doesn't matter how many cards are left to be dealt if your opponent counts cards.