A total lack of logic

retired_janellewood86 · 08-03-2007, 11:02 PM

Arteta, there's no shying away from the fact it happened. But why are you constantly denying the possibility that we could be right?

It may well be true that the game screwed you. I'm not denying that. But I'm saying to you, I've had this problem this season, I've tried to avoid it through interraction and team talks and it hasn't happened again.

Now, it could be a whole host of factors - the players getting used to me, good fortune, the skill of my players etc. etc., but I am saying the steps that I took with the direct intention of stopping stupid errors and I am now not getting as many stupid errors.

Yes, it could all well just be theory. But I am saying that I have done it, and now the thing I wanted to stop has stopped. Hence, I'm passing on the advice. If you don't agree, fine, but please stop implying that I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and refusing to see the game as flawed.

retired_rayrhi · 08-03-2007, 11:22 PM

I wasn't even talking to you, son. I was talking to wwfan.

retired_Cat1123 · 08-03-2007, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Millie:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Hammer1000:
I feel your pain Arteta mate, sadly some other idiot is going to blame your tactic, team talk or just the fact that you did'nt create enough positive energy!.

Hammer, are you actually going to contribute to these debates, or are you going to do the intellectual equivalent of hiding behind the big kid and shaking your fist going "Yeah! ner ner!" </BLOCKQUOTE>

Some would say i contribute too much!.

Anyway shut up, at least i have'nt got a girls name!.

retired_rayrhi · 08-04-2007, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Millie:
Arteta, there's no shying away from the fact it happened. But why are you constantly denying the possibility that we could be right?

Who is denying anything? I actually told wwfan I hope that he IS right. It's just I find it unlikely.

It may well be true that the game screwed you. I'm not denying that. But I'm saying to you, I've had this problem this season, I've tried to avoid it through interraction and team talks and it hasn't happened again.

What have you tried to avoid? What specifically did you do to avoid it?.

Now, it could be a whole host of factors - the players getting used to me, good fortune, the skill of my players etc. etc., but I am saying the steps that I took with the direct intention of stopping stupid errors and I am now not getting as many stupid errors.

Where is the 'stop stupid errors' tool? Are you hiding something from us? What steps did you take? Where is the feedback to show that the steps you took directly influenced what you were trying to achieve?

Yes, it could all well just be theory. But I am saying that I have done it, and now the thing I wanted to stop has stopped. Hence, I'm passing on the advice. If you don't agree, fine, but please stop implying that I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and refusing to see the game as flawed.

What have you done? What advice are you passing on? Where is the advice? Not once have I claimed that you are refusing to see anything. I am merely asking for proof regarding the claims on this forum. I only deal in fact. Every time I try to steer people away from the abstract and hollow theories, I become the accused of all sorts of implications. You mention you have done 'something', caused 'something' to change. You have been referring to it as 'it'. What have you managed to discover?

retired_rayrhi · 08-04-2007, 12:04 AM

And don't listen to Hammer, you're name is very nice...

although I would hazard a guess that with a name like Millie, you must be a Southerner

retired_jacque90 · 08-04-2007, 12:07 AM

I don't think what arteta described could be qualified as a tactical error, or even a stupid mistake. Not in my book, at least.

To me, in that situation, a tactical mistake would be for example seeing that their wingers are constantly winning the backs of my full backs, and I just leave it at that. Or knowing full well that they're playing the counter and still I willfully open myself on the back line for their through balls to just pass, and their forwards to be picked with impunity.

And what I qualify as stupid mistakes are back/side passes straight to the opposition when the passer wasn't being pressured, keepers coming out wildly out of their line only to be anticipated with a header, a striker that finds himself in a one-on-one against the keeper, but chooses to run to the corner area and waste time.

I honestly fail to see how what arteta said can pass as a tactical mistake. A foul is a foul, and fouls happen. It was a foul 30 yards away on the 82nd minute. It wasn't a stupid mistake. His tactics were working to the extent that he was vastly superior to his opposition. It wasn't a stupid mistake.

So if it wasn't wrong tactics, and it wasn't a stupid mistake, what was it then? To me, his example looks like a very good case of overcompensation. But that's me, and that's my pet theory

retired_rayrhi · 08-04-2007, 12:29 AM

Chand.

In terms of how the season is calculated, and assuming our 'over-compensation' theory holds water, would you agree that certain matches throughout the year, regardless of who you are playing, are significantly more difficult to win? It would be fair to say that I would have at least a 70% chance (and this is very very generous) of beating Burnley at home in that particular situation (form, morale, etc.), but perhaps certain games are randomly selected as banana skins in order to 'balance' the playing field. Thus, the odds of me beating Burnley could perhaps have shrunk to 20% since it was one of the 'assigned' games. This would still enable a certain chance of victory, but would certainly not guarantee it by any means. I did actually replay that match 3 times and I am yet to win. In every game, my domination was comprehensive to say the least, and there was that lingering feeling of inevitability that I just was not going to win.

It would be a real shame if Chand and I are correct, because this would imply that long unbeaten runs are highly unlikely, and often your team that should win on merit and ability would often not, quite simply because your team is TOO GOOD . For some of us though, there is little else place to hide. We are certain as night follows day that some things are awry with this version, and it's a most upsetting feeling indeed. I can only hope that I/we are wrong, and that the next incarnation dispels the unsettling myth of FM 07.

retired_mgavlick · 08-04-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arteta is god:
You are still shying away from the ridiculous events that occurred. The fact is, I am dealing in fact, and you are still dealing in theory. Even Paul C's explanation is not sufficient to explain it. Why am I dealing in fact? Well, because the stats don't lie. It's commonly agreed now that the AI enjoys a higher goals/shots on target ratio. To me, this is enough to prove that the game over-compensates. This is where my argument ends. Hammer, me, and many others have shown numerous screenshots. Even Millie admits that it happens. I am not trying to prove anything other than this. To me, this is proof enough. To you optimists, it's down to human error. This is where we disagree and probably always will. When formulate it like this:

Tactical Ineptitude is directly correlated with the AI enjoying fewer shots on target but with more goals than the human user

it sounds ever more ridiculous. And this is actually the argument against mine, Hammer's and co.

My argument goes along the lines of:
The AI has a significantly higher goals/shots on target ratio than the human user. We have numerous postings of evidence to prove this.[/B]

Your argument fails because there is no feedback system and no fact. It is all theory. You can't really hide from the fact that these anomalies occur. Hammer, Chandaman, myself, and even Millie will tell you this to be true.

But I don't. Having overachieved heavily in my first three seasons of FM I had to play a season in the Premiership with 2,000-1 odds to win the league. My board gave me no money to buy players. I came 14th and consistently out performed the AI in goals/shots ratios. the only reason you see it as an AI problem is because you haven't played a season managing a seriously outclassed side. Any team, be it AI or user, can outperform the other in goals/shots ratio by playing solid defensive tactics and scoring on the break. When I did it it was a job well done in my book. Yet, if the AI does it, it's cheating?

retired_rayrhi · 08-04-2007, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wwfan:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by arteta is god:
You are still shying away from the ridiculous events that occurred. The fact is, I am dealing in fact, and you are still dealing in theory. Even Paul C's explanation is not sufficient to explain it. Why am I dealing in fact? Well, because the stats don't lie. It's commonly agreed now that the AI enjoys a higher goals/shots on target ratio. To me, this is enough to prove that the game over-compensates. This is where my argument ends. Hammer, me, and many others have shown numerous screenshots. Even Millie admits that it happens. I am not trying to prove anything other than this. To me, this is proof enough. To you optimists, it's down to human error. This is where we disagree and probably always will. When formulate it like this:

Tactical Ineptitude is directly correlated with the AI enjoying fewer shots on target but with more goals than the human user

it sounds ever more ridiculous. And this is actually the argument against mine, Hammer's and co.

My argument goes along the lines of:
The AI has a significantly higher goals/shots on target ratio than the human user. We have numerous postings of evidence to prove this.[/B]

Your argument fails because there is no feedback system and no fact. It is all theory. You can't really hide from the fact that these anomalies occur. Hammer, Chandaman, myself, and even Millie will tell you this to be true.

But I don't. Having overachieved heavily in my first three seasons of FM I had to play a season in the Premiership with 2,000-1 odds to win the league. My board gave me no money to buy players. I came 14th and consistently out performed the AI in goals/shots ratios. the only reason you see it as an AI problem is because you haven't played a season managing a seriously outclassed side. Any team, be it AI or user, can outperform the other in goals/shots ratio by playing solid defensive tactics and scoring on the break. When I did it it was a job well done in my book. Yet, if the AI does it, it's cheating? </BLOCKQUOTE>

My argument here would be that you have never been in a position in which the AI can't match you. The statistical anomaly seems to happen mainly to those players who clearly dominate matches. Seemingly, a user tactic becomes so 'overwhelming' for the AI that it introduces the 'over-compensation' tool in order to match-up to the dominant human user. I have found that I can lead a lower team to instant success in a season or two. It's only when I have a dominant team that significantly dominates possession and enjoys a large number of shots do I witness '1 shot 1 goal syndrome.' Yes this is a theory, but it fits in with my observations perfectly. I feel that this is how 'super tactics' have been nullified.

retired_mgavlick · 08-04-2007, 01:18 PM

But I have been. I have won the title 7 years on the trot with barely a blip. Most of my losses (no more than 4 league defeats in any season) have come against local rivals or top sides. I always win at home to bottom ten sides and nearly always win away. The most they get is a lucky draw.

Thus, my theory of you having developed a tactic that outwits the attacking AI (easy) but fails to outwit the defensive one (much harder) equally holds water. That would fit with your observations, and also with mine, as I did struggle in my first few matches managing a top team before I changed my tactics to counter the ultra-defensive systems I was playing against.

A total lack of logic

It's no use having a squad full of star players without a decent way for them to play their football.

A total lack of logic