retired_e_fores

A note to the mods: I'm not sure if you will approve of this thread very much and I know there has been much discussion on this recently. However I feel a new thread is necessary to accomplish what I wish to accomplish here. I've started it in the T&T forum as this is where most of the discussion on the said subject takes place. I advise you not to shut this down to avoid cries of "conspiracy" and "tyrants" (or whatever is said) by some users.

Note to all: If you arn't interested in reading my reasoning and bla bla stuff, just zoom down to my question and please take just two minutes of your time to give a quick answer - it would be much appreciated.

Reasoning

Over the past few months on the board a fair few threads have popped up discussing the merits of the game and they often descend into heated debates about the game cheating. There appears to be a group of certain users who contribute to these discussions lot (I try myself to contribute a fair amount) including:
-arteta is god
-Hammer1000
-kolobok
-rashidi1
-neonlights
-socks
-Leory1883
-Marseille07
-prince_capri

and others (sorry if I didn't mention you). It becomes in these debates fairly obvious as to where crtain people stand on the issue. However I'm intrested in the opinions of the wider T&T community (and hopefully the wider forum community and general FM community), hence I started this thread to get a simplistic answer but I think it may be key to the debate. Both sides of the arguement say (in one way or another) "most people agree with us!" so hopefully this will settle that issue - are those who cry cheat just a small bunch of mad lunatics, or are those who defend the game secretly a small portion of SI employees trying to fool us all?

If this thread dies on it's backside I will consider that a good thing as it will probably show that most people don't care about this issue as one may think, hence many people must be satisfied with the game and dont think it cheats (or it just means I have put this together wrong...).

If the results show a large amount of people to think that the game cheats (regardless of whether it does or not), I would consider that very worrying news for SI and be proof that something is wrong with the game's feedback system (or it ay genuinely cheat, in which case SI you suck...)

NB. I don't think the game cheats and have argued so on the forums .

The Case Before Us

The following threads seem to contain much of the debate. Some of them contain extensive posts but if you have not delved into the arguement too much you may get a feel for what both sides are thinking right now and the logic put forth:

A Fan's Game? Is it?

Does this game CHEAT?

The Ultimate ExperimentWhy This Game Needs A Complete Overhaul!

There are others floating about too.

Note that this debate is more than just about cheating. It is aboutthe very fabric of the match engine and the improvements that can be made at the very heart of the system so as to improve Football Manager for everyone.

What do we/I mean by cheat?

By cheat I am going to mean the following:

That the game has and uses an ability to give the AI an unfair advantage over the human player by influencing events such that they are out of the human player's control.

Or to put it simply:

The AI can and does stop you winning when it feels like it.

The Million Dollar question...


Do you believe that the game cheats?

-(Subject to the definition of "cheat" given above - I hope it satisfies all concerned for now at least)

Answer by starting your post with the following options:

-Yes
-No
Maybe
Don't Know

Try and make your answer clear.

Of course this is a complex issue which I am trying to simplify, hence give and explanation of why you gave your answer and elabourate ifyou wish for the purpose of the debate.

I will collate the results every now and again as more and more people vote (assuming enough do).



I hope I have put this together in an informative and balanced way and I hope that what I am trying to acheive is relevant to the arguement (which I believe is relevant to the progress of th game without a doubt). Please say if you think otherwise.

retired_e_fores

Suprise, suprise, I made some mistakes - particularly regarding the links.

Here's the link to The Ultimate Experiment thread by Arteta, which got mixed up with Hammer's thread above.


Perhaps you could all add on at the end of your votes: Should we be able to edit our own posts: Yes or No?

retired_elpata

Nope the game doesn't cheat, its just some people dont understand the instructions still. And rather than analyze a tactic and see exactly why it doesn't work its easier to blame the game mechanics. Most things tactic related what go wrong in a game is explainable if you delve deep and take a look, but most people dont want to spend time doing that. However mistakes and off games do occur on the game, so if a rare result happens then thats just football and you have to deal with it.

But if it happens regularly then its a fault with your set up, it must be. If the game cheated then all users would notice it and not a small few....

People just need to understand tactics first and then they will realise there is a perfect explantion for most things that happen.

You used to be able to edit posts but too many users abused it so it was disabled again.

retired_B-Scott

In my opinion it doesnt cheat, but events sometimes occur which dont appear to be a result of our actions

retired_Cat1123

Personally i worry that otherwise intelligent people cannot see what is smacking them round the face?.

The fact that i can use a poor to mediocre tactic and finish a season in a similar position(or even higher) to when i use a far superior tactic tell's me all i need to know!.

The game also makes a big mistake in confusing pace for dribbling ability. I sit and watch players with a dribbling stat of 5 tear my quality defence to pieces, simply because he has high pace and acceleration stats?.

JeffRogers

i'd just like to ask, that of a game of basically 1s and 0s, what you need to win then is a mathematical formula?! yes?

why then is it, that its impossible to create a 'diablo' tactic? (ive never used it myself but the reasoning is sound!) why is it that i can have this formula but cannot win?

i'll give an example: i had a power cut the other day and had to reload to a few months earlier. my first game was against chelsea which first time round i won 2-0! the game was autosaved on that day giving little time for any unknown parameters to change and i always do my teamtalks for which i said exactly the same thing! but low and behold i was 3-0 down within 30 minute??!! my team was already picked so no changes there and i said the same thing to the team before the game.

WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE WRONG???????

anyone?

this isnt cheating exactly but it does make a mockery of any hardwork that goes into creating a tactic, dont you think?? the game also feels scripted at times (all in a random way, of course!) and im sure, like many others, that you can tell theres nothing you can do about it. try as you might! (and i do)

if someone can explain this to me i'd be grateful! but just saying its my tactic doesnt cut it, as ive seen so many 'its your tactics' posts and the solutions given are what i'm doing in the first place! if it is my tactics then why can the above happen? it won 2-0! oh no it didnt it lost 3-0! er wait a minute...!

i cant say the game cheats! but i can say the game is ****!!

retired_BrownVanilla

I do not think the game cheats. Why would SI make a product cheat their customers? - it doesn't make sense.

However I think some things do have far too large of an impact on results. Team Talks is the obvious one, yes of course they should make a difference, but not to the point of changing your team of great players to people who can't pass the ball 3 feet. Target men is another one, yes IRL they can be match winners, but in FM they will constantly get 8/9 ratings - which is ridiculous. basically if you have world class defense but the opposition has a good TM 9/10 times the TM will wreak havoc.

retired_e_fores

So so far it's:

Yes - 1 vote
No - 5 votes (my vote is no btw)

I'll do another review tomorrow.

retired_kellyk

First its illogical to assume that the game cheats. Why? Most of the people who claim it cheats also say that the silders are confusing, some say they don't know how to do teamtalks.

Having said that, why then do these results happen? Is it because people struggle to find a relationship between sliders? Is it because there are far too many differing points of view on how the game could be played? Are people frustrated because they cannot win all the time?

Frustration generally leads to resentment, and in the absence of all the facts, it easier to blame something that is right in front of a person.

Personally the game can't cheat. If it could I would be the loudest critic, I have an ego that can't fit my house. When I play computer games, I rarely lose.In any situation where I pit myself against a computer its my ego that writes all the cheques. And if this game did cheat, I'd be the first to holler, cos it would hit my ego.

I have reviewed games for well over 15 years, tested them out and have been rewarded well to identify faults in any engine. This game doesn't cheat. There'd be a hundred easier ways to make this game spit out bogus results.

retired_adge1475

It cheats for you and it cheats against you. Because streaks are so huge in the game, you're almost certain to win a game against a lesser opponent when on a good streak. To make sure this happens, the game makes your players score etc.

But in bad streaks, everything is opposite. The AI keeper always gets a rating of 8+ (not a super-keeper, it's just because you're in a rut), and the opposition wins with fewer shots on target. Streaks begin and end randomly.

Another thing that determines the outcomes of games are team talks. If the announcer says "Whatever he said at half-time made a difference...", that team WILL NOT GET WORSE THAN A DRAW. I've NEVER had it happen where that announcement shows up for the opposition and I win. Of course, it isn't biased either way; if you make a good talk, the same could happen to you. Saying the right thing doesn't correlate into this situation, however.

Bottom line: Some events will always happen no matter what you do. If you're in a rut, you're not going to get a dominant win, I don't care who you play (obviously dominant is different in different circumstances. I don't consider Manchester United beating AFC Wimbledon 3-0 a dominant win for them).

I like it say that it's destiny.

So my answer is yes, but it isn't because of any bias towards the AI. The game makes certain things happen to fulfill the destiny of what is supposed to happen. (And that's why there are certain games you just can't win)