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It's no use having a squad full of star players without a decent way for them to play their football.


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Old 08-01-2007, 06:36 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #51
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It's been said: "Ask the right question".

Is this game a perfect reflection of football management? Not at all! And I don't think it ever will be one. Irl there are too many variables that impossible to implement in the simulation.

Does this game capture key moments of football management? Partially, I would say 30%. There has been huge improvement since earlier versions, but stil a lot needs to be done.

Did programmers have an intention to make it hard for human players? Maybe and even likely, because if game is easy people stop playing very quickly. Thing is AI can "learn" only based on algorithm assigned, while a human player can learn every day. Therefore, AI should have initial advantage.

Is using "random" function really cheating? Not really. If you flip a coin, the probability theory says it's 50-50 chance of head or tail. If you repeat it 10 times, you should expect 5-5 or close outcome. In reality it can be 8-2 or even 10-0. The problem is that "random" function in this game works a little differently. Most likely it works like this "A beats B 80% of time if they both have "right" instructions". Thing is B (weak AI team) has right instruction more often then A (strong human team), and as a result 80% become 50% etc. The only question is actual numbers that has been used, and whether the code takes into consideration the quality of AI manager.

Can human player come up with "right" instructions? Yes! The thing is that "right" instructions are not unique, so we have to either tweak, or accept decrease in probability of positive outcome.

What could (and probably should) be done to improve human player chances? Information! Detailed manual that explains not how to setup each player / team, but rather what exactly each slider / comment / team talk does from game creators point of view would be a good start. We can figure out it by ourselvs, but it is so time consuming... And people buy this game to play, not to test. Improved feedback system, etc. And here we back to question 2 - the more key moments of football management captured, the better.

Does it make sense to complain about "unrealistic" outcomes again and again? Not really. The game is released only once a year, and patches fix only real bugs. Each version is better than previous one in terms of football simulation, but it will never be perfect. Excluding random factor would lead to simplification (buy the best players => win everything), whilst in presense of random factor there always be unrealistic outcomes.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:54 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #52
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Alright then lads, explain this one:

This morning I went over to my brother's to finish off our season. I am Sunderland, and it was a 3-horse race for the title. Reading, Sheff Utd, and me were all joint top on exactly the same points. I was top on goal difference by a mile. Best defensive record in the league. It's the final game of the season and a win will guarantee me automatic promotion.

Home to Derby who are 10th and can NOT make the playoffs:
I started with my trusty home formation, a moderately attacking 4-4-2. I've played this home and away ALL season long. The only tweak I have made are having my full-backs on rare forward runs when I take the lead.

It's worth noting at this point that Derby started the match with Steve Howard playing centre back. Ive had him at Derby and he's a goal machine. Strange.

5 minutes—Andy O'Brien plays a 30 yard ball over the stumbling Howard. He completely misses it and Freddy Eastwood is in. 1-0 Sunderland.

43 minutes—Freddy Eastwood takes the ball to the byline (as per my instructions) and pulls a glorious ball back to my new signing, Helguson. Header. Goal. 2-0 Sunderland.

Half-Time

Sunderland 2 Derby 0

Possession: 60% v 40% (accurate depiction. Killing them.
Shots/shots on target: 10/5 v 1/0

47 minutes—Nyatanga whips a cross in from the left for Derby. A Derby striker crumples in the box. Penalty. O'Brien brings him down. Up steps Steve Howard (still playing centre back) Goal! 2-1.

Ok, no worries, it's just a goal. We can still push on here. At this point I change my full backs to forward runs again to sneak another goal. We are in full control and the highlights are flowing. I pepper the goal.

68 minutes—This time a Derby winger plays a ball in from the left, and once again their striker crumples like an Italian. Penalty! O'Brien again. After the first penalty, I had set all of my centre backs to easy tackling, they usually play on normal. Up steps Steve Howard from centre back. Goal! 2-2. What an amazing comeback. I take off O'Brien for James Collins.

We still dominate. Other than these two 'incidents' there has been nothing of note for Derby.

92 minute—James Collins whom I brought on for O'Brien 'dallies' on the ball. It's the 92nd minute and my time wasting is set to a minimum. Why would he dally when I'm fighting for promotion? The Derby striker is clean through when along comes Anthony Gardner from nowhere to scythe down Lionel Ainsworth in the box. Penalty! AGAIN! and a red-card for Gardner's troubles. Up steps the veteran striker, Howard, whom is still playing centre back and who is so good that we actually can't score against him in the 2nd half. Goal! A penalty hat-trick for Howard. Reading and Sheff Utd, of course, both win, and I am left in 3rd place to fight through the play-offs. I'm not even going to replay the match. In fact, my brother just called me (I let him carry on after I left for work) and I lost to Leicester in the play-offs semi-fina. I won the first-leg 2-0 he said, and lost the second 3-2. What's one to do? I love playing the game, but this is really a step too far...

Final Stats

Sunderland 2 Derby 3
Possession: 62% v 38
Shots/Shots on target: 21/12 v 4/2 (I would have thought that a penalty is a shot on target?)

I would love SI to explain this one. I can hear it now. Well the pressure was off Derby. what about the three penalties? Oh your centre backs couldn't handle the pressure. But I took O'Brien off. Yes, but Collins was scared to take his place. Blah blah blah...
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:59 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #53
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i'd like to think no, but i believe yes, so yes
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Old 08-01-2007, 09:38 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #54
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Yes - 9
No - 18
Maybe - 2

sm_tlw - I take your vote as maybe

Ok so in percentages:
Yes - 31%
No - 62%
Maybe - 7%

Ok, so more people think it doesn't than think does - the good news.

The bad news is that this is far too little. A whopping 38% (thus far) think the game may cheat. SI, if you are reading - that is far far far far too much and shows that the game is hugely flawed, whether it actually does cheat or not.

To Arteta and Hammer - I think you're being unfair regarding your subdivisions of "realists" and "SI devotees". A lot of people who say the game doesn't cheat have put quite lengthy and frank complaints about the game and it's flaws - it what way are they "SI lobbyists/devotees" or "showoffs" and worst of all "liars". The latter of those descriptions is particuarly unfair Hammer, if you don't mind me saying (if it was tongue and cheek, i dont get why?).

To C. S. - I see your point regarding the question - I used the term "cheat" since it seems to be the general term being bandied about.


Also - I'm slightly worried I miscounted or counted people twice over. Someone point out if I've made any mistakes.


Keep voting
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:07 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #55
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moggydave i have double checked and your totals are correct.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Yes No MaybeHammer1000 Cleon LuketiAJStyles socks bobScott1990 aston_martinarteta is god Walcott's Wonderkidssannyasin rashidi1AndrewJayLucchi panomaniacC.S wwfanfermcr1 moggydaveyosbiel8 Leroy1883 kolobok scorpion g sven78 meerko sm_tlw Brannfan(NOR) sparkysrovers skip spence Kiwi_Mark_LFC</pre>
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:15 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #56
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i'd rather count myself into the Yes part, eventhough i only point out 30%, but those 30% happened in the EPL, which is probably the most played League on the game.
And getting a bug/cheat/[enter random word] into there is just a big mistake and shouldn't have happened.
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:18 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #57
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I say no the game doesnt cheat, but the AI suspect conversion rate is cause for concern.
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:31 AM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #58
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<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Yes(10) No(18) Maybe(2)Hammer1000 Cleon LuketiAJStyles socks bobScott1990 aston_martinarteta is god Walcott's Wonderkidssannyasin rashidi1AndrewJayLucchi panomaniacC.S wwfanfermcr1 moggydaveyosbiel8 Leroy1883sm_tlw kolobok scorpion g sven78 meerko Brannfan(NOR) sparkysrovers skip spence Kiwi_Mark_LFC Badboy500</pre>

No problem sm_tlw

Could I ask others who post to explictly state Yes/No or Maybe at the top of the post to make this poll easier to total. Additonal elaberation is also appreciated.
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Old 08-02-2007, 07:10 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #59
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So thats:

33% Yes
60% No
7% Maybe

Not looking good SI if I'm honest. Cheers for he clear tallying Leroy :thup:
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Old 08-02-2007, 07:20 PM   FM2007 - Does the game cheat? A improvised poll - please all have look!!! Post #60
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i think this game does cheat in my first leg vs villareal i won 4-1 then in the second leg i lost 3-0 a last miniute goal and 2 sendings off
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