mattyd

30% Yes and 70% No

why 70% No?

Now lets look back to FM2005 and FM2006, i can still see the posts infront of me, Players argueing that the game is TOO EASY and NO CHALLENGE, because with the rite Tactic u could beat any team.
Now ppl start argueing that the Game is cheating and that random losses happen, even if u are the superior side.

I myself enjoy that i dont win every game anymore, but i'm also a little angry that i can't win every game anymore (especially in the EPL).

Losing to minor teams happens on this game without a reason, but it also happens in real football without a reason.
Take VfB Stuttgart & Bayern Munich as an example. Munich had Magath as manager for 2 years winning everything in their league, but somehow crapped out last season and even sacked their succesful manager. Stuttgart, didnt get to win **** within the last few years, but managed to win the Bundesliga and got into the Cup Final. It just happens.

Why 30% Yes?
i never got to be successful in the EPL, maybe its me not being able to adapt the english style of play. But losing the EPL with 11 points ahead before the last 4 games somehow isn't real.
I myself think that it is the EPL that has some Bug in it, whereas all the other leagues i managed in (eg. Germany, France, Spain, Argentina, Italy, Austria and a few more), i have been successful, eventhough it took me a few seasons to get there.

retired_mkvero

I don't think the game cheats in any way. But I agree with arteta on one thing, the AI does have an advantage over us when it comes to, well generally speaking, tactics.
It knows just enough, or maybe more than enough to counter most of our tactics, much like Deep Blue-like computers calculate all possible chess moves to counter Grary Kasparov's gambits.

From what I've read on FM 2k8, the feedback is bound to be improved, and personally I hope it will give us elaborate reports on "what went wrong" in a game, pinpointing the weakest links and horrendous tactical moves we used. It would be great if the Ass. Manager did that for us. Once we have that we're more likely to improve our own game, and get a better understanding of all the slider positioning etc.

retired_tammynoel

it may not cheat - but the match engine is ****ed

premiership class players with attacking free kicks turning around and booting it back to an opposing player...

defenders under no pressure regularly lumping back into their own goal from 40 yards...this has happened about twice in the premiership ever...

players with no dribbling ability (in real life and the game) going past several world class defenders (in real life and the game) and scoring blinders regularly...

players with 2 on 1 not passing and shooting wildly every ****ing time...

players under no pressure dribbling the ball over the line...

the bullshit notion that passing and tempo is linked...has anyone who states that ever played any kind of sport at all...its easier to make a short pass accurately at pace than it is to pass a ball long accurately (direct football still requires the ball to be accurate)...

the totally ****ed notion that because you play at a high tempo your players are going to miss more shots...let me get this straight...i havea one on one with the keeper...but hold on...we are playing at a high tempo...so i'll rush at my shot...what the ****...absolute crap...teams play at high pace because they create more clear cut oppotunities...players rush their chances when surrounded by defenders - not because of the tempo they are playing at...

that and you can play the same game with the same players and the same tactics over and over again and get extremely divergent results...randomness has far to greater hand in the outcome...

some of the things that happen in the match engine are beyound reality...

its not the tactics...

its not the players...

its the ****ing match engine...

the tactics the human player is using can not be so bad as to be the cause of some of the results that are being seen...unless the match engine is stuffed or the ai manager is a little too perfect...

take your choice...

but dont give me that crap about its always the human players tactics - because its quite clearly not...

retired_Cat1123

Well said Mark!. :thup:

Thats the ****er for me, being told that its my tactic or the fact that i did'nt change this or that when i finished 6th first season with the Hammers and had the 3rd best away record.

My home record let me down yet i absolutely outplayed the opposition 95% of the time and made the same or similar changes as i did away, but drop points thanks to the sort of thing MarkLFC mentions above.

The match engine is a crapshoot of ridiculous scenarios and if you look closely enough you too will see where it does'nt add up?.

The unbelievable games you lose are almost entirely made up of these pathetic incidents that include...

...an ageing forward with poor dribbling stats and no pace, race past your best and fastest defenders
...a player no real heading ability getting up above your two big dc's to score
...young back up keepers having the game of their lives despite letting in 30 goals in 5 games in the reserves
...your star striker missing a dozen efforts a game in which the text ask "how did he miss that?"
...your star striker in the clear yet seems to hold up the ball with no such instruction until he is tackled or he takes it too wide to get the shot off

There are a thousand of these incidents that if you watch the games you will see for yourself and these are your explanation for losing, NOT because you miscalculated a slider!.

retired_rayrhi

I have to agree here with Kiwi and Hammer. I remember the old tempo theory—that you will miss more chances if it's set to high. It's utter nonsense, and it's these types of theories that have allowed the match engine its credibility all of this time. Unfortunately, the 'devotees' in these here parts too often devise these 'excuses' in order to 'protect' the game. Not once have I ever heard someone say 'you just might be right.' I'll say it again: HOW ON EARTH can anyone say that playing high tempo will make you miss more chances? Think about what that statement actually means. If you really think about it and you still think it makes sense, then something is more awry here than I previously thought. It's enough that people think there is a God without the need for evidence. I think we should make a new forum called 'FM zealots.net'.

retired_janellewood86

It wasn't a dig at you not being good, and I can tell from your tactical discussions that you do know what you're talking about in the main. What I'm getting at is that you are assuming it must be the game at fault and are refusing to blame your approach which may well be flawed. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it might be.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Agreed.

[quote]The stats tell me it does. Additionally, it is impossible to disprove it with tactical inadequacy theories since there is NO feedback in the game. It is never, EVER clear in this game that x is a direct result of y. Once again, this comes back to the lack of feedback.[quote]

Sort of agree. Sometimes it does seem a bit weird that something has happened, and although it is possible to see a pattern over a few games of things going wrong, right there and then in the heat of battle it is very difficult to know exactly what's gone wrong unless you have the eye for it. So, yes, feedback could do with some improvement as the average gamer will in most cases just see stuff going wrong where once it was right and lose interest.

Agreed.

The part that we fundamentally disagree on is not that the AI converts more opportunities than we do. My argument is that this in itself is useless information.

The sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That's not why Galileo was arrested. He got arrested for his explanation as to WHY it happens. This is what we disagree on. The path of the sun is not at issue. But in itself it's pretty useless information. (I always return to Galileo. Why is that? )

I think it happens because I'm inept. You think it's because the AI cheats or is in some way biassed against good tactics. This is the disagreement, and to be honest I don't care whether you think it cheats or not. What gets me angry is being told that I am somehow missing something obvious, or I'm an SI fanboy, or I'm blind to the game's faults or something. That's not true. The fact is, you guys haven't proved anything of use in the AI Cheats debate. All you've contributed is a sign that you think is a manifestation of the cheating AI. I don't accept it as a sign of the cheating AI as it could be caused by other factors. I think those factors are more important. Here lies our disagreement.

This the point that *I* have been trying to make, but it always falls on deaf ears.

Hence. No. I don't think the game cheats.

retired_FaultyFate

arteta,

In your experiment you actually saw that tempo refers to how fast players make decisions, not how fast they run. And it makes sense since NOBODY walks when playing football, so making slider that refers to running does not make sense. As a result, I can say that playing high tempo will make you miss more chances (I am on earth, just checked ). Players don't have time to make right decision => they don't create actual chances. Think about it this way: irl if a team decides to play one touch only, how often will they lose ball or simply pass to closest player just to make one touch pass, not create something? ST asked to make decision very fast = 90% of time he will take a shot because in this case he at least seems to do his job. He does not really create chances, and goal/shots ratio will be very low.

You might be right (I am saying it just for you :cool that some other "anomalies" don't have simple explanation, but it does not mean that none exist. It could be even that there is a piece in the code that causes some problems. For example, SI tried to model some sort of lack of form in mid-season, but the actual outcome of this model happened to be: "You chances to win in this period reduced by X% if you don't do (something I don't know what)". Or if you happened to have mentally unstable players (hidden attributes), they cause you some problems. Is it cheating? Not really, though feedback could be much better.

Thing is that we either have to investigate all aspects of the game, or accept it as is, with all problems, anomalies, etc. The game is not perfect, but nobody is.

psychodad13th

Not a chance.

Why would SI games shoot themselves in the foot willingly?

retired_wolfpac9mm

yes it cheats.

the problem is that programmers are human, and maybe not so professional. They were unable to create a good combination of variables so they made a over use of the tag "random();"
its like... Nothing is random in football!!!!
So, I mean, the game cheats because the engine is very poor and cheap and you can see that also in the injuries.

But, the only way to upgrade this situation is to find another good game to play.

retired_hope

What you have described is not cheating.

If as you say the programmers were a bit frugal with something like the random function then this would apply to both the AI and the human player. Thats not cheating as both teams are both affected by the randomness. If this were the case the premiership would look massively different each year, but it doesn't.

Cheating would be code where there are different rules for human and AI player or artifical boosts to the AI performance.

I cannot believe you said the match engine is poor and cheap It has evoled massively in the last few year.

So this is a good game? I would never have guessed.