retired_elpata

No, but I control one team at a time. The AI controls a low end of ~18 teams, a high end of (divisions added) x (teams in each division). That's a lot of teams.

What I would seriously expect is for teams not to be carbon copies of each other. Switch to 4-2-4 when they need a goal. Fall back to 4-5-1/5-4-1 to defend. Sure, some teams would play like that, but not all of them. I'd wager not even most of them. In my last game, by 2019/20, about 3 out of 4 teams played me 4-4-2 Defensive, then switched to 4-2-4 or 4-5-1/5-4-1 as needed. That's just ridiculous.

The AI does make tactical mistakes. What it also needs to do is to make strategic ones. The game needs a marked difference between its AI managers. We need some of those AI managers, if they're not up to snuff, to completely misjudge their approaches to some games. Of course we also need some AI managers, if they are very good, to be able to do just the right thing. But right now, the more game times passes, the more teams tend to play the same.

Which leads us to another problem: Human managers are told time and time again, rightly so, to try and reason their tactics over. To take care of them. To make sure to avoid contradicting instructions. To adapt tactics to teams and teams to tactics. And so on.

If the AI tends over time to play in the same way, it means it suffers no such 'restrictions', in the sense that it's theoretically possible for any AI team to play 4-4-2 Def, then switch to 4-2-4 or 4-5-1/5-4-1 at will. Regardless of the type of squad they have, regardless of the type of manager these AI teams have, etc.

Sometimes us human managers take over teams where we know immediately what kind of formations would work, and which ones won't. It's in the squad, and in the player characteristics. But apparently the AI is able to take any team and make it play in that one particular way it loves so much.

So, to answer your question, what I would seriously expect is for both human managers and the AI to at least start on equal footing. I would also seriously expect to see some variety regarding the tactics and formations we meet. If you play the game long enough, it's not hard to see how the AI has been keeping track of what works and what doesn't, and tends to stick to what works. This is logical for one team, or one manager historically. But when you have a large number of teams and a large number of managers, we should be seeing a lot more trials and errors than what we're seeing now. It's too plain to see there's one AI brain behind all the teams, because as time passes all the AI teams slowly degrade into copies of each other, playing what the master AI has deemed to work. </BLOCKQUOTE>

A very good post and you make some good points. I tend to agree with most things you say actually.

You do notice a difference in formations you may face but not until you are deep into the game and lots of new managers have arrived. If you manage to go 10+ seasons then the game does become more varied, but we shouldn't have to wait that long

As for this bit

Thats no different from us though and I know I could make almost any formation work with any team. I'm not being big headed there either, you'll see what I mean in a sec.

Because the AI is exactly that an AI it knows what works and what all the sliders and instructions means. It doesn't need to read the forums or have big discussions to know what something does. Yet a lot of people on here still don't know what the sliders do, so already you have a disadvantage and are starting on the back foot. The only thing the AI as over us is knowledge of how the game works, once you have a simliar level of understanding you also can make anything work as Rashidi, WWFAN and myself have shown time after time.

I wont say any more than that because we'll end up talking about wether its right or wrong about the level of understanding and the communications between each other. As well as how poorly written the manual is regarding other aspects and then we'll stray off topic and start a whole new debate.

retired_elpata

I'm off out later so I probably wont be online til tonight. But that gives you plenty of time to start a new game and get it sorted out and gives you time to post.

Make a detailed list of everything you are doing if possible i.e training, players in and out, tactics etc. This way I have a better understaning of what your doing.

Incidently I had a mess around with West Ham last night, never used them before but they have soo much potential. I imagine it is pretty easy to overachieve is you can keep the front 2 fit.

But yeah start a new thread and we can discuss it more there. I might also give them a try too at the same time, I'll see how im fixed later to start a new game

retired_Mehman

Thats no different from us though and I know I could make almost any formation work with any team. I'm not being big headed there either, you'll see what I mean in a sec.

Because the AI is exactly that an AI it knows what works and what all the sliders and instructions means. It doesn't need to read the forums or have big discussions to know what something does. Yet a lot of people on here still don't know what the sliders do, so already you have a disadvantage and are starting on the back foot. The only thing the AI as over us is knowledge of how the game works, once you have a simliar level of understanding you also can make anything work as Rashidi, WWFAN and myself have shown time after time.

I wont say any more than that because we'll end up talking about wether its right or wrong about the level of understanding and the communications between each other. As well as how poorly written the manual is regarding other aspects and then we'll stray off topic and start a whole new debate. </BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's exactly the problem right now - that the AI sees the match engine and the sliders and how it all functions without anything clouding its view, allowing every AI manager to make the best decisions as to how to proceed.

Whilst for a Mourinho or a Riikjard that is good - good AI should understand the game as well as someone like wwfan - for a manager like Gareth Southgate or Chris Hutchins should have its understanding of the match engine hidden from the AI more - the lower the CA of the coach, the more muddy its understanding of the sliders should be, much like beginning human managers. The system seems to work ok when AI plays AI but stupidity is not nearly as prevalent in the game as it should be. Great managers can improve a poor team with discipline and careful tactics but let's face it, a lower premiership team will rarely have a great manager. A lot of people talk about how player ability has less of an effect now but perhaps it's more that because the AI is on the same level for all teams, it can always make the best of the players it has, making poor teams far more effective than they should be. Certainly I haven't seen many seasons where a team finishes with as few points as Watford and Sunderland have in recent years. The next iteration of the match engine sorely needs a bit more dross! crap teams should be allowed to play badly more often (and still steal a lucky result here and there, but mostly behave poorly).

retired_elpata

Rightly so too, that what an AI is for. It would be pretty poor if it didn't understand all the basics.

It sort of does work like that now in a way, although not as prominent as one would like.

I disagree, if you watch many AI vs AI games you still see the silly mistakes. Although not as much as human vs AI but that down to a lack of understanding of what and how the game works on our part. Just because we don't understand something, we cannot expect the AI to know this and take it easy on us. Most silly mistakes can be cut out of the game completly imo and I don't suffer much from this complex. How ecer I do experience some mistakes but they are exactly that just mistakes, you can never cut them out 100% because they happen IRL.

What defines a great manager though? Most of the worlds top manager started off at these clubs, so a lot of these lower managers will be the managers of tomorrow.

Id partly agree with that yes. But just look through your league table and check a few teams out and you will see that they still have players under performing or over performing just like us.

I think lower teams over achieve more due to them not having as much pressure on them and how the AI attacks them. A club low down the league most AI teams disregard and set up attacking against them, meaning its far easier to just sit back soak it up and counter attack them.

Its why I am almost certain I can take and low end club to the top 3 first season. But the 2nd season when I'm expected to win thats when it becomes harder as teams are harder to break down and less adventerous against us.

I guess this part varies season to season and person to person. As I have seen teams relegated with 25 points or less before. And almost every season the bottom 3 have 35 points or less.

Isn't that what happens now? I often see teams nicking a goal here and there.

retired_Mehman

but what clubs tend to do now is play poorly for most of the game, change formation and nick a goal. Poor teams should be allowed to get lucky goals using their normal formation so that the change of formation is far less important. I want to see the odd game go against me by someone grabbing a header from a corner and then parking the bus. At the moment I coast games against poor teams then the last ten minutes they change formation and play like gods. It's not that you can't defend against it, I understand that there are methods to take advantage. The point I'm making is these AI changes shouldn't be so powerful that they need addressing in the last ten minutes in most games.

retired_Cat1123

Cleon - I read in a previous post that you believe that you can take a low end club into the top 3, 1st season.

I wondered if we could incorporate this into the new West Ham game i was going to start with your help?.

I dont mind being proved wrong about the game if you are up for it?.

It would mean you supplying the tactics, training and Managerial prowess to my game, which would be difficult but not impossible.

You could start a new game yourself and decide what players are nessasary to add to the squad etc and i'll purchase said players then before each game i could let you know who we are playing, who's available etc and you can instruct me how to play against said team?.

You could also advise me on a suitable team talk and i could pause the game and update you with how a specific game is going, including key incidents such as goals etc?.

It would certainly go a long way to showing us doubters that the game is more playable than we believe right now, what do you think?.

We could start a new thread too and call it "Cleon and Hammers West Ham Project!".

It would also bring together both sides of the "cheating" argument together and may just show those of us that believe it does, that it is simply down to our poor management?.

retired_elpata

I'm unsure If I have that amount of time. You start your game and thread and list me eveyrthing you do or did and i'll reply when I get the chance and tell you what I did.

If I do have time later though I will start a game with the Hammers and use your thread if you don't mind and I'll compare how my approach is different from yours and what sort of results we are getting.

Its hard to tell someone what starting ,ine up etc to do as you'd have to have control of the game and have it infront of you so you could see what needed doing. If that makes sense?

Hopefully I will get time though in the next day or so to start a proper game with the Hammers and see how I do.

retired_Cat1123

No problem, i'll get underway!. :thup:

retired_cindymerc

[quote]Originally posted by Cleon:
improvised poll - please all have look!!!
Message:




chiellini has been outstanding for my arsenal team averaging aroung 7.30 a game so i cant agree with you hammer. Cleon maybe right, you might not be using him properly or the defense is generally not playing well.

retired_Balanchinegal

I originally said NO to the question, and my name is on that list but I would like to be removed from that list and moved to the YES list, well, left of the middle anyway...
SHOCK! HORROR! What, Starr_Man5?!!

Allow me to explain...

Firstly, I haven't went and played the game today and got so badly stuffed that I'm crying "Cheat!" or anything like that.
What I'm saying is that going on other peoples definitions of Cheating; that is, making players miss sitters, teams dominating matches only to get beaten by the AI's only shot on target, horrible back-passes leading to goals, and all the other "Anomalies" we/they are witnessing. Then yes, the game IS doing this - it is forcing events to happen.
Because your players ARE THE GAME, they are merely pixels on the screen. That's not really Fernando Torres or Thierry Henry on there, they are not real people, merely (awful) graphics layered over a very complicated computer program, with a very intricate calculation system running the whole thing.
The game HAS TO make these things happen or else the game wouldn't work at all - I believe that the game makes a calculation based on each teams tactics, the result of this calculation is changing all the time depending on player morale (which runs in-effect), instructions, formation changes, weather and all sorts of variables which are continually altering the (likely) outcome of the match.
But the fact is, the match engine is very flawed and goes about presenting the results of said calculations, sometimes in a very bizarre (Read:infuriating) way, leading to cries of "Cheat" because if what you were watching was a REAL match, you would call the twilight zone or demand your money back or something...

The very poor match engine just isn't able to realistically present what is in fact, a realistic final result.