moggydave

After a slow start to my second season at Blackburn which didn't involve the easiest of fixtures my new signings were finally settling in and some easier games were coming along. Into December and I hoped to really charge up the table and challenge for an automatic UEFA spot and an improvement on the past seasons 9th place finish. I was also going well in the League Cup with a tie against Championship side Charlton. I was feeling confident, surely I just had to keep going as previously?




Perhaps not, just look at the "form" column.

I won't bother showing you the results (unless you really feel you can help and need more info - posting screenies takes time). I'll only say I lost 4/5 games in a row including a 4-0 defeat in the League Cup tie away to Charlton (the beginning of the slump) and the latest, a 3-0 home defeat to an underacheiving Spurs team.

I haven't forgotten how to play FM, and even if I had suddenly got everything wrong it doesn't explain the scary amount of "5" ratings by important players which shows they are actively performing poorly.


The fustrating issue is that, yes, if one or two players had suffered a similar loss of form, I might be at loss to explain it. My whole team has forgotten how to play football though and I have absolutely no idea why.

I'm no whiner (as a side note please please don't let this discussion descend into the "cheating" debate), and I'm not a stupid player either (though I'm no Cleon). The issue at stake here is not necessarily my specific problem (though any help on that would be much appreciated - I undertand more info may be needed for that though), rather it is that I have no idication as to why it has happened.

My plea to SI is to improve the feedback system. Through many debates in this forum on the games flaws when I take part I keep coming to this conclusion, so here it is in black and white.


Either that or can someone convince me that in someway the feedback system is good enough and that there is a way that I can FIND an explanation to this?

Bob

1 defeat is all it takes to go on a slump in this game and really, who knows why??!!

do you use teamtalks? i find its the best way to stop your team going into a slump by taking the pressure off in the very next game after a loss! otherwise you can use the media to your advantage in forthcoming games by 'biggin up' your team!

arteta is god

I feel for you Moggy. I know exactly what you are going through mate. You feel like crying don't you? It's okay, it's normal.

When this happens, I personally can find no logical explanation for it, nor solution to the problem. If this is a plea for a better feedback system then I will gladly sign the dotted line. Not to touch on the 'cheating' debate, but I do feel that the lack of feedback leads certain sections of fans to certain 'conclusions.' And since there is no feedback system there is never going to be an answer, hence a more heated debate (I'm right and you're wrong — you've heard it all before).

Many people think that the challenge of FM is 'cracking the code', but I personally feel that real life managers know why certain events occur. A good assistant or manager surely knows why a tactic is breaking down. In FM, it's not possible to know if you are closing down incorrectly or your marking system is failing. Quite simply, the match engine is not a good enough communicator — all it does is punish you for setting up wrong, hence the 'hit-or-miss' feel to games.

I ask this to SI — in games, the AI is very good at countering us — we've all been on the wrong side of it at some point. With this in mind, the AI must do two things:

a. Completely override your implementation regardless of your settings (I truly hope this is not the case, because this WOULD be cheating). Or,
b. Know where your tactical weaknesses are and expose them in the way it has been programmed to so.

Option 'b' is the more favourable choice, I am sure you would agree. So, if the AI does actually know where your actual weaknesses lie and indeed it does know how to counter your formation/tactics, then why should we not have access to the information that the AI clearly enjoys? Surely it is not too much to ask for our assistant to access this information and relay it to us in the form of our wonderful English language? In code it would sound something like this:

Slider X + y + n + t + h = g

In human terms it would sound like this:

Your players are giving the opposition too much time on the ball, try closing down Lampard or employ a man marking system in the middle.

The better the assistant, the more specific/accurate the observations could be. This would certainly open up a new dimension to the game. At the minute I couldn't give a rats arse about my staff. I get them because they have good stats and that's it. Does anyone REALLY know what the staff do? I don't. Let's start giving them a function and start making them earn their money.

So to answer your question, mate, I have no idea to help you. Nobody on this forum does. Perhaps even SI don't know. I feel we give the game far too much credit. We analyse the ins and outs of it so much, we think it's so realistically devised that every problem has a solution. Well I don't think it does. I think a lot of what's going on is due to the game's flaws, and until we have our very own feedback system, I will always think of it this way. At the minute, the game punishes us very harshly for our ineptness, yet there is no reward for doing things right, in my mind, because even when I succeed I don't know why!

I say, give us a feedback system and make the game a journey of knowledge, experimentation, and learning that doesn't punish us for our mistakes, but highlights them allowing to move to the next level. If we don't know what we are doing wrong then we can never learn to put things right. I am sure many people are stuck in a rut since they don't know any better — their bad habits stay with them and they never succeed. At the moment, the game is a trial and error experiment with little room for error due to a lethal AI. Keep the level of difficulty the same, but please please please give us the tools and knowledge to match the damn thing :thdn:

arteta is god

That was supposed to be a :thup:

It looks like I just sent someone to an execution!!!

Hammer1000

After being sent an excellent tactic set from a friend of mine, i saw the Hammers going on a run in which we only lost one game in about 18.



This was the final table and it was great to get into a QL spot for the CL, but watching games was still a nightmare!.

Now im into season 2 and have won only once in 7 in the Prem, 4 draws and two defeats.

We are stillplaying as well as last season, but the results are not forthcoming.

This is not a "cheat" post, i'd like to hear some views as to why the bad run though?.

I'm going to post a few screenies of recent matches, so you can get a better idea of my frustrations.



This was our very first CL game, its so frustrating to play so well against such a good side and come away with nothing.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/149/gaztac3bd0.jpg

Another CL game and more frustration. These are the kind of games that have me switching the PC off, i just cannot get my head around them and i find this takes 98% of the fun away from the game.



Again here what do you do?. I'm delighted to have given Manure a tough game away from home, but i may as well have played **** and i might have got a better result?.

Now as usual i'm at the point where carrying on seems more of a chore than any fun, what if my whole season carries on in this way?, its happened before why not again?.

How do i go about putting it right?.

micro-ice

well said m8.wellsaid.
i have tried hundreds of times to creat my own tactic yet i have only created 2 successful ones(?) which didnt last a season. WHY? well because suddenly i just started losing and what really frustrated me was the fact that i didnt know what was going wrong with a tactic that won the first 10 games without any difficulty. if the game had a feedback system that would have let me know what was going wrong then maybe just maybe i could have created the tactic that had so much potential at the begining. if the game had a good feedback system i am sure they wont be too many people opening threads asking for tactics that work. yes the game is currently a trail and error game whereby the little errors that we make when making tactics the A1 heavily punishes use when all we need is for it to tell us what is going wrong so we can correct it and enjoy the game. now i have only played football manager for for a few months so i cant even imagin how bad the game must feel to you guys. however am not saying the game cheats but the many flaws is has makes it feel that way. just may opinion.

Cleon

What was your form before you entered December? If it was pretty good I got a theory as to why so many people in the English leages have a dip in form between December and February. Id also need to know the passing styles you used for each player in this month as well please if it isn't too much toruble.

Id sign the dotted line too,id like to see a number of things implemented in the game so players know exactly how they lost a game. For example something like a after match scout report were one of your scouts identifies the areas that caused you problems and tell you exactly how he thinks you lost the game.

I don't want him to give solutions to fix the problem though as that would be far too easy imo. However something highlighting the mistakes you make during a game and highligting the specific area's in a tactic that cause for concern is a good idea imo.

Again I also agree. I think because there is no feedback system its much easier for users to blame game flaws and insist the AI cheats even if this isn't the case due to the poor feedback we get on certain things.

I personally think this is true of FM aswell, I know quite a lot of people off here who can identify things what go wrong.

Hmm not sure I agree with this part, as I think by watching a game you can clearly see if someone is closing down how you want them too or is marking how he should be. But I agree something are not as clear as they should be like the D-line for example. Because the visual effects of this are not so clear in FM id have to also agree with you in parts of what you say.

I hear what your saying but because its only a game its always going to be this way. If you set up wrong then the AI needs to punish you as thats what its been coded to do. Its been coded to beat you in match and if you set up poorly you'd expect to loose. I can't see this ever really changing in all honesty. No matter what it will always punish you for certain things we don;t get right in out own tactics. Because its a computer game its more like a game of chess at times and the wrong move could cost you.

It is actually option b it does.

I agree to some extent here. But if we spend 5 minutes studying the AI then you should be able to notice some weaknesses the AI has and try and exploit them.

I'm not sure id want the Assistant or whoever to relay which flaws the AI in his tactics as I honestly believe this would make the game far too easy and prove no real challenge at all.

If you get a half decent scout he already tells you information along these lines already. And pinpoints any dangerman he feels could be a threat to you. I'm not saying its perfect but to some degree this information already is with in the game.

The staff do whatever you instruct them to do.

I agree with the top part of this post, but the bit about not punishing us for our mistakes I don't. How would we ever loose if we was not penalised for making mistakes? Remember its just code we are playing against and not RL players, so I don't see exactly how a game can still expect to beat us but at the same time not punish us for our mistakes.

The tools to match the AI are there, but its not easy and does take some time to learn and figure out. I'm not sure everyone wants to go into that much depth but thats a whole other discussion so I'll leave it at that.

Hammer1000 - The team has higher expectations the second year so has added pressure. And because of this teams are playing a lot different than they did against you the first season. But I think were gonna go off topic here, I think your posts would be better suited to either a thread on there own of ideally the West Ham thread.

moggydave

Ok here are the results. The slump actually didn't begin till the middle of December and I haven't gone any further because I'm scared quite frankly... So as you can see Cleon, form was good prior to the collapse. My passing I always have on global in a 4-4-2, with Arteta as an attacking CM who I sometimes have as playmaker. I often have mixed passing but I often tweak a lot and allow for scout reports etc. What's your theory?


What has occured to me by looking at this screen is the cluster of fixtures which may be a factor, though my first screen (taken just after a game) shows player conditions to be pretty good. On a side note, the game's fixture listing system for season 2 and onwards needs reworking.


Tactically I don't always get things right but in the Everton and Wigan games I think I more or less did get things good enough for a draw at least - in both players got themselves sent off and others simply didn't perform.

Cleon

What was the weather like in the games you lost? If it was windy, wet, snowing then you need to adopt a more direct approach.

So if you did things right in the games against Everton and Wigan these 2 games could have just been unlucky?

Di you play counter attacking in these matches btw?

moggydave

In the away ones I did tick counter attack.

I just can't understand the 5's. Lots of 6's and I would know I was doing something wrong but the 5's mean my players must have been actively performing poorly. I cried out with joy however when I went on to Ryan Nelsen's player interaction screen and saw the option to call a team meeting.

I won the next game at West Ham with a last minute winner after going down to 10 men again (need to revise my tackling me thinks), so perhaps I got very unlucky. My main point is that it should be fairly obvious why my whole team would suddenly perform poorly at their own accord -not because I was setting up wrong tactically (though I may have been doing so) - and yet it isn't obvious enough. The answer lies in a convoluted swathe of questions on what are generally considered to be moot points which may effect one or two areas of performance but (at least I thought) would not be significant enough to make your whole team suddenly useless.


In short the game leaves you guessing a bit too much, and I just feel that SI could make a great game that bit more great by correcting this and I hope that SI have done something about this in 08.