retired_roshawnda82

I think it's clear that more and better feedback is a must in the future. I don't think the game cheats, I just think there the fact that most of the time if something works or doesn't the user doesn't no why, and this is compounded by the odd problem or two with the match engine. It is indeed very frustrating at times. It does seem an absurd situation to be in that for example the same tactic with either the same players/team or with similar players at a similar team, can have instant success one time and instant failure the next time.

However, that said, I do really think it's important to tough it out through your first season because by the start of your 2nd season, you've hopefully got rid of the remaining dead wood that you couldn't get rid of at the start, you've brought in even better players with exactly what you want for your tactic to work, your players are on a good level of understanding and probably also list you and eachother as favoured personnel etc, and of course all your players have had a season of training development. I definately think that in the long term at least it's certainly possible to have reasonable success.

What I woulds suggest Starr_Man is that you start a new game as you have done with a tactic your happy with. Then, go on holiday for 12 months and try this exact same Liverpool experiment again. I reckon it will be REALLY interesting to see if there's a big difference!

retired_Balanchinegal

Although it's a good idea, to be perfectly honest I don't think I should because, as we all know about the many flaws and problems within the game, a new release is just around the corner and we're all well informed of it.
We are all hoping for serious improvements in FM08 and every time I/We start a new game it's always in the back of my/our mind(s), therefore taking some of the impetus, or incentive, out of it.
Also, I know which players Liverpool have signed IRL and it's rather odd starting a new game and said players are completely out of reach. Well, when taken en masse at least.
So I think I'll just wait for the new release before taking the game seriously. What I am going to do until that new Bug-infested farce comes out is start a game now and continually save and retry loads of matches while watching the full match as apposed to highlight mode, I will piddle around with tactics and watch carefully to see if I can work the bloody thing out! See if I can develop a better understanding of it...

retired_nickgiardina

Hi Starr_Man5, don't let three bad results get you down, from why I have read your tactic is fair good but it might have one or two flaws in it and that is all the Ai needs to take advantage of you. It might be that your tactic works well against teams that are attack you, but against teams that are very defensive your short passing/possession game is easy to defend against. This from wwfan's thread on 'New Strategies and Theories for '07' and might help explain why this might be the reason.

Maybe you should (if you haven't) have a read of wwfan's observations of the match engine and the way it works. It gives you are really good insight into how the AI (depending on the team, Chelsea or Watford) trys to defeat your formation, it might answer some of your questions as to why your tactic is working against Chelsea but not Watford. Here's the two threads that really helped me...

http://community.sigames.com/eve/for...7/m/2242071292

http://community.sigames.com/eve/for...7/m/9572038913

retired_nickgiardina

And also...

p.s. I hope you don't think I'm trying tell you what to do

retired_Balanchinegal

Of course I don't.

THE DIFFICULTY OF THE DAMNED THING IS...

You see, here are my thoughts on FM07 (and in fact all the SI titles);
First and foremost, all things being equal and what our friends at Sports Interactive don't seem to understand (in fact, they've probably gotten so above themselves that they don't realize!) is that Football Manager is A COMPUTER GAME. Thats it, a computer game, nothing more or less.
People like myself spend our money on it, we sit down to play it but we continually feel baffled by the goings on within, angered, confused and often cheated.
This is not because the game cheats (as it doesn't), it's because many people just don't understand the bloody thing. Even the tactical "Guru's" can only offer their own theories on the game, match engine and tactics, they themselves cannot give fact as to what each thing does.
So why won't SI tell us? Things like "What exactly do the sliders do?" (This is a common one, as we all well know) What do all the individual instructions and tactical options ACTUALLY DO? Why doesn't it say in the manual?
Is it a secret?

Take the attack mentality for example;
There are TWENTY different increments available from "Ultra Defensive" to "All Out Attack"
TWENTY??!! We should only need five: ULTRA DEFENSIVE, DEFENSIVE, NORMAL, ATTACKING AND ALL OUT ATTACK.
Think about how a manager delivers his tactics for the forthcoming match IRL..
He'll come into the changing room to the lads, there's a drawing board or something similar and he'll discuss tactical points and what he wants/expects from each player. I really don't think he'll say something like:
"Right lads, We beat Watford (sic!) last week playing attack number 17 but this Fulham side are a bit tighter, take it down to about 14 and keep it tight at the back for the first 15 minutes."
No he would not, what a load of old nonsense. The sliders just don't make sense, whats the difference REALLY between 15 and 16, or between 5 and 6 or even 7?
Will I lose at 5 but draw at 6 and win at 7? Does it even matter? Do you ever see a physical difference out on the pitch when selecting between 3 and 7 or 14 and 18?
I don't know, and neither does the majority, if not every one else. We can only offer guesses or theories because SI like to keep that one from us for some reason.
That is why there are so many people on here claiming the game cheats them continually; Simply because they don't know WHY the game did what it did, we don't know the reason why our tactics fail, our So-called "Assistant manger" offers little help, or any insight into our tactics and players. He might as well not be there as he does anything but "Assist".
We'll continually concede goals and the only pattern we'll see is the commentary saying "(player) will have to take the blame for that goal, his giving the ball away/dallying led to the opportunity!" or "(player(again!!)) will have to take the blame, his mis-placed back pass ( )/ missed interception etc etc"
These are the only patterns we'll see and what do they tell us? For many people, the above commentary will be interpreted as: "For no reason whatsoever, and because this game is supposed to be difficult, I'm going to take these points off you by gifting myself a daft goal, there you are, now you handle that scenario."
Does our Ass man say "We are conceding goals because of our passing/mentality/formation etc.." No he bloody well does not, you lose a few matches and thats when you need an assistant manager but in FM07 ours go bloody missing when he is needed most.

Football manager is the only game I have ever known where, even after playing it for YEARS, I still cannot understand it! By now most games would have become "Clear" I would have developed an understanding of it.
Every time we start to get "Good" at the game, SI (forgive the cliche) "Move the goal posts."
The B45T4RD5. :eek:

SORT IT OUT SI!
At least when you make a game, Tell us how to play the damned thing.

JeffRogers

yes it is a secret unfortunately because if it wasnt then everyone would set about playing it in the same way and everyone would be successful and then people would stop posting in the tactic forums....etc!

the game thrives on its ambiguity and no-ones gonna make that change!

retired_future doctor

Starr_Man5 dnt worry bout it at all m8, there hav been plenty of times where i hav lost the 1st 3-5 games of a season and then go on to win almost every other single premiership game!
Football Manager i do feel isn't very realistic, throughout the game we all see results that would just never happen, i.e. chelsea finished 11th in the prem in the game i have just played
And good old jose minimoskillo remained still at chelsea 4 the next season!
(they didnt win anything)
i believe that their is no 'supreme tactic' there never will be, there isn't in real football.
Various people do find good working formations of a v.large variety, and they seem good for a while when we try them out, but them comes the infinante losing streak, it frustartes us all, we sometimes resign and give up, or change our formations completely. When really i belive the answer is too simplify team instructions AT MOST! dnt completely change them. (not accusing any1 of tht)
Yes i do believe the game is over complicated, with them bl00dy sliders, but there are plenty of ways too do well in a season with almost any team and formation (apart from the odd few)
I really hope you carry on with ur 'experiments' Starr_man5, as i feel this particular one u hav created has been succesful with me so far.
But like i say i believe there is no such thing as a SUPER TACTIC, tht u wont have 2 change 4 any team. But there are many tht u only have 2 slightly change, i.e. against chelsea i usually 'push up' and use offside trap with both man utd & liverpool, with both whom it has been quite succesful.
(Ballack scores sumtimes) -it's always him, but i usually still end up winning the game :cool:

I hope u do continue in workin out tactics used by teams in real life, in both past and present as they can work! and ur v.good at working them out!
thnks 4 the tactic, ben

retired_Balanchinegal

@bob - Your point is valid, yes, but what i'm saying is they (SI) keep changing the game to a point where it becomes (for many of us) both unnecessarily difficult, and very Random with odd decisions, results and various anomalies which do nothing to help our plight, and are VERY unrealistic.

@benc1991 - although i haven't started another game, I'm thinking of doing so but first I want to edit the database a bit, the only thing I want to do is update the transfers for the premiership (seeing how this is where I'll manage) and add the likes of Tahksin Shiniwatra at Man City, Mike Ashley at Newcastle and what-not. Maybe if the Prem feels "Up to date" and I have the likes of Fernando Torres, Babel and who-have-you at Liverpool it should give me an incentive to play again. Because at the minute the game is a year old nearly, and a year is a long time in football when you take transfers and all that into consideration, and playing the game is like watching your favorite TV program again and again until you're bored sick of it. That's how it feels now, you know what I mean?

PS - appreciate the very kind comments, thank you.

JeffRogers

oh i'm with you starr man!

ive just finished my first season with newcastle and since remembered why i stopped going them!

my season went from the sublime to the rediculous in a heartbeat! beating arsenal 1-0 1 game to getting knocked out of the league cup the very next game against a poor lower division team even though i stuck with the exact same team due to having a small squad. then beating man u 3-0 only to get beat 3-0 the very next game against reading. both at home! it was a hugely inconsistant season that frustrated the hell out of me!

the game is too hard to fathom sometimes, it really is!

KryptonSean

benc is right, I always start the season poorly, yet always qualify for Europe. don't give up. I had Liverpool 20th after 5 games, yet we finished second, albeit 10 points behind Chelsea