retired_paghetto9

It really gets my goat when people think that a console can match a PC for power.

I've got a 3ghz Athlon with 2gb RAM, how many leagues do I run on FM '06? 7, the leagues in England. Why? 'Cos that's simply all I need and creates a decent speed of play. If we're gonna make the consoles overclock themselves (and lord knows my 360 discs et hot enough as it is!) by adding 730 leagues in the database, we may as well be playing on the PC!

Consoles are simple and fun, that's what makes them different from PC's. No patching, no need for hours of FAQ hunting for a tech bug for your Geforce card, and certainly no want or need to run so many leaguesin FM '06.

I appreciate people can be dissapointed by a possible smaller amount of leagues (as some were with previous console CM's and other console footie games).

But I don't know anyone on this planet who has played a game with every league and country set to on on their PC yet. That would be surely the only ultimate realism database size you're going to get, so why try replicating something that mammoth (in the name of realism it seems) when the machine you're running the program on can't take it, forget won't.

FM is a HUUUGE game that I'm sure probably will test the 360 along the likes of Oblivion and DOA 4. (have you heard the noises from your disc drive when playing that game? And talk about hot potato disc! )

The nearest I've come to being a professional programmer is crying in a bout of insanity by the time I'd hit page 90 of Visual Basic For Dummies, but as far as I'm aware no amount of cores or processing power in the world can replace RAM. As has been explained in a previous thread on here, the 360 uses a different 'type' of RAM, which enables faster processing but less memory.

One of the problems people faced with the PC version was slow loading times. They're not bad on my PC, but 1. not everyone can afford even a half-decent PC and 2. People (especially console owners) these days don't want to be sat there waiting for a huge db to be processed every day.

Anyone who has ever since the beautiful travesty that is wrestling simulation 'TEW' or - much more famously - the original X Box 'Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind', will knows what I'm talking about there.

I'm fully confident the SI folks will do a grand port of a true classic. I've waited for this moment since Christmas in 2002 when I bought CM 02/03 and an X Box. I believe even if there's only 2 playable divisions, it'll still be the most played game in my 360 collection. And at 20 hours so far and counting, beating Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion isn't an easy task either!

retired_namile

You do get patches for the 360 and the games.

Also at the moment the 360 is more powerfull than the majority of PC's, though this will change as technology changes and prices come down in the future.

retired_kjean

I have to say 10 leagues is fine by me, i rarely play more than that on my PC. My main concern is the size of the player database. On the version of Championship Manager on the Xbox, the database was pretty damn small. I normally run the 'large' player database on the PC and I'm kind of hoping that the database on the 360 will be of a similar size. Anyone got any ideas?

retired_paghetto9

You get the ocassional patch for 360, not a 300mb one every few months that you often have to search for.

It depends who you ask as to which is more powerful, all the PC mags I've read have said many current PC's aremore poerful than the 360. The PC version of Oblivion certainly looks slightly better to be honest.

And only allowing for 10 leagues in FM '06 suggests the RAM of the 360 is lower than your average PC.

The SI fellas have said there will be plenty of players and teams on offer. I'm guessing the 360 could handle the 'normal' db size certainly.

shac

you know what gets my "goat" as you say?

when people go off on rants but the entire premise of them is wrong.

let me explain.

first, you do not have a 3ghz athlon. you may have a 3000+ but it doesn't run at 3ghz. it runs at 2.16ghz.

second, why shouldn't i expect the 360 to equal a PC in terms of power? the facts are that while you're processor is a powerful piece of kit, it does not compare to the power of the 360. the 360, as i have stated here, is a 3 core powerpc chip. each core (effectively 3 processors) runs at around 3.2ghz. thats 3.2ghz times 3. each core also can handle 2 hardware threads. thats a total of 6 threads.

third, the memory in the 360 runs at 700mhz. it's GDDR3 RAM. only the top end vid cards have that, there aint a PC in existence that uses such memory for system RAM. for the vast majority of people, DDR400, or PC3200, whichever you prefer to call it, is the fastest RAM they can get in their comp. there are some modules that are slightly faster but they can't run on most systems.

fourth, the graphics side is a non issue with this game. woth others, a LOT of the power of the machine is tied to the fancy graphics. not with this game. very very old graphics cards with 32mb will run the game fine on a PC, so considering the graphics chipon the 360 is one of the most powerful GPU's in existence, it's really not an issue.

firth, people keep going on about RAM, but its not as big an issue as people claim. like i said, i run up to 30 leagues on a athlon xp 1800+ (runs at 1533mhz) with a gig of 333mhz RAM. large database too. and that is more than enough ram. i've checked the RAM being used by the game, and it never reaches 512mb, which the 360 has. the problem for me is the processor in my PC. this is obvious as when it's waiting when i hit continue, it says processing on screen.

sixth, i run my PC with 100mb of page file. virtual memory for those who don't know. so it's not an issue that the 360 doesn't have any. i've run with none in the past, there's no noticeable difference in performance.

to sum up, the 360 is more powerful than any home machine out there in terms of processing power. the memory s far faster than any PC out there on PC's and the graphics power (which is a non issue with this game, games like oblivion have incredibly detailed textures, heavy AA processing and HDR lighting) is as powerful as it gets on any machine, PC or otherwise.

so the statement -

is ridiculous as the 360 doesn't match PC's for power, it blows them right out of the water.

now having said that, if the info that was posted saying that had to conform to microsoft specs on loading times and such is true, then i understand. but i'm still disapointed as the fact is the 360 can do it no probs. there are those of us who don't mind the lng loading times when setting up and when we hit continue. i watch TV or DVD's or whatever at the same time as playing. i'm in no real hurry as regard to the game speed. and like i said it's disapointing that i won't have the option of using the immense power of the 360 to run a shedload of leagues.

decent speed of play is subjective. but if this restriction aint the doing of SI, then fair enough, not much point me moaning about it here. though i will need to object when people say the 360 can't match a PC for power

a question for SI though, with the xbox live functionality, is there any chance we might see a download to remove the restriction?

shac

not true. remember unless you have your 360 hooked up to a monitor or a HDTV its running at 480p resolution. which is 640x480 in normal PC resolutions. that and the PC CANNOT do both AA and HDR at the same time. its standard on any resolution on the 360. hook the 360 to a monitor or a HDTV and get the 720p or 1080i resolution and i can gaurentee you the xbox version will blow you away.

retired_paghetto9

If you look at My Computer sure, but the actual clock speed of a 3000+ Athlon is 3ghz..

There's 3 cores true. Do they actually run as a solid 9ghz unit? Nope. If they did, the 360 would have RAM-sapping Windows and countless other background tasks running in the background like a PC has..

The RAM is fast, but then I'd expect that for a machine without Windows and running entirely software. Also, as the SI fellas have pointed out, the 360 doesn't have virtual memory, hence speed comes at a price of actual memory capacity.

I don't remember saying there was a graphics issue with FM, I'm against 3D match engines for one. The 360 version looks gorgeous, one of the best looking console games ever made. But compared to any top range PC version, it's still not as good.

I'd imagine one of the reasons SI had to cut the amount of leagues for the 360version was because of the amount of loading..

Oblivion isn't as smooth as silk on the 360, that's all I need as evidence. And Hell, when you have 2ghz RAM, it doesn't matter.

is ridiculous as the 360 doesn't match PC's for power, it blows them right out of the water.

now having said that, if the info that was posted saying that had to conform to microsoft specs on loading times and such is true, then i understand. but i'm still disapointed as the fact is the 360 can do it no probs. there are those of us who don't mind the lng loading times when setting up and when we hit continue. i watch TV or DVD's or whatever at the same time as playing. i'm in no real hurry as regard to the game speed. and like i said it's disapointing that i won't have the option of using the immense power of the 360 to run a shedload of leagues.

decent speed of play is subjective. but if this restriction aint the doing of SI, then fair enough, not much point me moaning about it here. though i will need to object when people say the 360 can't match a PC for power </BLOCKQUOTE>

Why does this last bit sound like an English Language A Level essay?

If we're going to be petty about it though, games are made majoritably on PC's and consoles don't have to deal with Windows and other background processes that take up *alot* of power.

Fact is the 360 is the most powerful console in the world and is indeed better than most PC's, but there are some PC's out there that can beat it and there will be many more in the not-too-distant future.

I prefer games without bugs and need for patching so I buy most of mine for console and save PC ones for online play (since the ave. age on Live seems to be 11 ), so for that the 360 is great.

But to outwardly say 'my console is the greatest thing evur!' as this angry rant seems to infere is just disrespectful to the very machine that helped make your 360 games.

PC's are always evolving, which is why consoles don't stay on top for long, if at all.

Just to kill this, it can all be summed up in a perfect example (sorry to keep dragging FM into this ) - FM '06 on 360 is limited to 10 divisions, the PC (with upgrading) can run more at a steady rate. Forget how many separate cores you have, that sort of evidence is what matters to me.

shac

ok i'll respond that that, and for the record, i dont want to seem like i'm having a go at you, rather what you think as i reckon you are wrong. it aint personal


um... no. this is completely and utterly wrong. every single AMD chip released since they started adding + to the names runs slower than the number gi8ven in the name., every single one.

assuming you wont take my word for it....

Athlon 3000+ processors run at 2 different speeds, depending on the core used in the chip. there are several different versions, with minor differences between them all. in fact 8 versions in total. for proof i'll supply two links. the first is a list of athlon 64 processors from wikipedia, the second from the AMD website, select athlon 64 and 3000+ from the appropriate boxes for a full list.
either way, you're chip runs at either 1800mhz or 2000mhz, depending on the version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...icroprocessors

http://www.amdcompare.com/us-en/desktop/Default.aspx

i'm sorry but i am confused by this statement. how does the speed of the processor determine what would be running? it doesnt need windows or anything else running. it just needs power to run next gen games. and that's what it has. you're statement also shows you don;t have much understanding of how a multicore, multi threaded system works.

again, this is wrong. what it is being used for does not alter the speed of the memory. the speed is how quickly information can be passed from the processor or hard drive to the memory and vice versa. obviously the quicker the better. virtual memory is on the hard disk, and is incredibly slow, compared to RAM. as i have said, i run my PC with next to no virtual memory with no performace hits. and is terribly ineficiant. moist of the time i have the paging executive switched off in windows. requires a registry tweak and means that unless your RAM is completely and utterly full, virtual memory is not used at all, when normally it is used when it aint needed.

no matter how you look at it, the RAM in the 360 is far more advanced tha anything you will find in a PC. fact.

quite right. you didnt mention a graphics issue, but i was talking about everything and tossed it in there. i still reckon you're wrong though. on an HDTV at full 1080i the 360 kicks the arse off any PC. at least any PC that doesnt cost way over £1000 to build.

if seen screenshots from oblivion on those PC's. it's no better than on the 360 at 1080i resolution.

RAM isn't the biggest issue for oblivion opn PC, processor and GPU are the biggest issues. you can have all the RAM you want, if you dont have the CPU & GPU to back it up, it's useless. as for the smoothness, a few loading area bits, apart from that where is the lack of smoothness?

only if you let them. my windows install is a slipstreamed version of XP with SP2 built in and a load of useless services and features removed. if you know how to run a comp, the speed and memory you can reclaim is unreal.

yes at this point it is. and it's called next generation for a reason. of copurse PC's can be upgraded, while the 360 can't. but at what price? at this point to build a system with more raw power is not possible withoput multi processor solutions. and i dont mea like the athlon x2. i mean more than one physical chip. and then you need to take graphics cards into account. you want to spend thusands to build a PC that can defeat thye 360, go ahead, it's a bit silly though

agreed. live aint exactly ideal.

thats not what i'm saying. i am a PC gamer. i have over 150 games here. and that will grow. much more than the 360 games collection will. i'm just giving credit where it is due. the 360 is a true next gen piece of kit, and as i have said, a comparable PC would cost thousands. i know the technology being used and the fact is the 360 is way ahead. for now. but even when PC's do overtake, the cost will be way way higher.

in fact, assuming the code was written to take advantage of those cores, then the 360 is far more able to see better speed.

i'm sorry but your claims of the running speed of an athlon 3000+, and i'll apologise, i've been going on the assumption your chip was an athlon 64, hence my details above will be wrong, will correct below... anyway, like i said, your claims it actually runs at 3ghz are ludicrous. and show me you do not have a full enough undersdtanding of the underlying technology to fully understand what is being said. not trying to be nasty, these are just the facts. if anyone who knows what they are on about wants to argue what i'm saying, please do. also some input from someone from SI would be welcome.

as for your chip if it aint a 64bit variety....

its between 2100mhz and 2200mhz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...icroprocessors

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/...0_3734^11672,00.html

retired_paghetto9

Avoiding tech specs, the thing that got me into this discussion was the fact SI said the 360 version of FM would only have 10 leagues.

And that the game would run 6 games at once, *yet* still run at 'a mid-level PC' range. If someone can explain that to me I'll be an even happier bunny.

shac

lol that didnt get you into this discussion, you started this thread

as for what you said, what do you mean by 6 games at once? serious question. i dont get your meaning.

from how i understand it, SI have been restricted by microsoft in the time the game can be idle when we hit continue. if other games on the 360 are anything to go by, i cant see anyone being disapointed by the speed.

but i'll say again its a real shame those of us who don't mind waiting won't be able to run a shedload of leagues.

i could have this wrong though, there's been no official word as far as i know. can anyone from SI clear this up for us?

this discussion is getting a bit silly, and way off topic which is my fault as much as anyones. if we could get some official word on this it would solve the issue and let us know exactly what to expect.