retired_kellyk

Everton v West Ham (1-1)

Scout Report:

The pitch at goodison is on the short side, it will be congested, players will find it hard to find space. They also play a slow tempo 442 game.

This being a congested pitch I decided to use the 4321.. It plays with 2 attacking fullbacks, 3 MCs who are on normal mentality and 2 AMCs supporting one lone striker.

There's a lot of one touchpassing in midfield and I will keep the formation narrow. Dline was set to normal and tempo was normal as well.

Things didn't start to well for me, the idea here was to punch through the middle.


Fullbacks
Mentality 10
FWR Often
RWB mixed
TTB none
Passing - short
Closing 6
Tightmarking off

DCs are set to close down at 2 and manmark. The dcs actually defend very close to their defensive line. So they literally are going to let players come to the edge of the box..so I can't play with a deep dline.

MCs
They are set to 7l with the 2 outer MCs The central one has a higher mentality. All three are still within the neutral range so they should give good support to the defense.
Passing is set to 1
Closing down for the outer ones is set to max and the central one is on normal. FWR are mixed for all the MCs and the AMCs and the FC, which does not sound to exciting. The 3 MCs are set to TTB often.

Match
The first 20mins or so, the game is fairly cagey. We do create a number of good quality chances..my tempo has been normal, width normal. And with the normal dline, we are getting as good as we give, and we concede a goal from a corner.

This forces me to do several things. I'm not creating enough pressure. And apart from tossing in a new tactic, I need to make small changes...

1. Raise the Dline to highest notch of normal and raise my tempo..width goes to high notch of normal as I increase the risk.

2. Reduced mentality for the DCs from first normal to last defensive.

In the 67' I replace the targetman and go to a pacey striker. We manage to score a goal from some quick passing around the box and equalise.

This is one game where I don't create good clear cut chances. I will need to make some mods to this tactic later. For now though with only 3 shots on target I work hard to maintain a point and leave goodison. So I reduce tempo, drop dline to normal- centre and switch on counters.

My attacking posture - Increase width/Increase dline/Increase tempo.

My defensive posture - Reduce width/reduced dline/made changes to mentality/and reduced tempo

retired_kellyk

West Ham v Newcastle (1-0)

Next a home game where we are slight favourites to win. The Geordies lie sixth in the table and my scout warns me that they play a direct style of football punctuated with good passing from defense to attack.

I'm still trying to refine my home tactic a 433 now. So I stay with this tactic. Its a very attacking tactic that features 2 FBs that make a lot of fwrs but on normal mentality, 2 MCs on attacking mentality and who make loads of FWR and 2 wingfowards that make max FWR.

The only players who don't make FWR are the DCs and the MCs.

The tactic has been set up on normal width/ quick tempo. After 40 mins despite the fact that we are enjoying a 53% advantage in possession, we've not been able to score.

[i]Tweaks[i/] I drop my tempo and increase my width, I also increase mentality for the wingforwards and give them Free roles.

We managed to score a goal just before the end of the first half..Solano one of the wingforwards manages to blindside the defense.

Second half I encourage my players, there are still players with 6 and superb which means that they aren't carrying their weight yet. I also make changes to make tactc.

The wingforwards seem to be moving ahead of the ball too much and this is due to the FWR instruction so I change FB, MC and AMs to mixed.

The match produces something like 33 shots in total, with us having 10 on target and Newcastle with 11 on target. There were plenty of chances that should have been converted. I'll need to adjust training now.

retired_kellyk

This thread is developing into something more akin to observations and using a certain style of play.

Fundamentals of Football Manager

<LI> Pre-season Prep
Without a doubt easily the most important you need to plan ahead and make sure your team have the right base attributes to work from


<LI>Backroom staff

Hire the right people these include:
Scouts with tactical knowledge and the right coaches so you can max training.

<LI>Training schedules
Set the right ones to and make sure that in all cases you head into a match with players around 95% in conditioning. Poor conditioning is just as bad as a bad tactic

<LI>Morale
Is important, a poor teamtalk and bad media interaction do more damage than you know. If you can't do this right you will struggle in the long run

<LI>Gel factor
Players take a while to gel, once they do you can start experimenting with formations. When they haven't gelled yet you need to pay attention to your tactics and don't be too over ambitious



Broad Strategies for games.
Sliders - Love em or hate em you gotta use em


Ideally a tactic should have some players concentrating on defense and another focused on attack.

You should also look to use things like tempo/defensive lines and mentalities as tweaks in game or alternatively create your own tactics.

An attacking tactic could have a mix of short/direct passing, played at a quick tempo and a normal defensive line. To make the tactic more attacking you'd increase the dline and adjust mentality accordingly. An attacking formation would have a normal to high mentality and this could also be characterised by high closing down in front, and by your midfielders.

Possession football should be characterized by short passing/lower tempo/ normal to wide widths, closing down can vary in this formation, you could have some players closing down heavily and another lot closing down a bit more deeper. That way your players always fall back into possession before defending.

Counterattacking tactics are characterized by a mixed style of passing, with direct being the most important in the team.

retired_happydawg

rashidi1, I have long thought that you and Cleon may be privy to a greater knowledge of the match engine and or the AI. Though I may stand corrected.

However, for myself, I am grateful that you choose to assist the rest of us as professionally as you do. I am diligently starting the demo over and over again to try to get one formation with two options in time for the full game release.

It is mainly due to your sterling efforts that I am hoping to get something workable.

Surely people realise that even if you were able to provide everyone with an individual tactic it would only have limited success. That is, once the team has to change and the AI alters it's owm game, then you are very nearly back to square one?

For myself, I have printed out reams of your and Cleon's epistles and am grateful for them, to you and wwfan et al! I have so much information that I could be the England manager. Yes, I am that bad!!!!! KUTGW. Kind regards to you all.

retired_kumarc

rashidi1 - When you talk about setting instuctions for positions such as the FBs and MR/L you always give them the same instructions, this of course makes complete sense. However what about a situation where the players on opposite sides have different skill sets.....

e.g. in my Arsenal save (FM 07 still btw) im looking at going with a first eleven with a back four consisting of (from left to right) Chiellini Toure Chivu Gallas. Now Chiellini is decent all round, but Gallas isnt that great attacking wise, so what are your thoughts on giving Gallas not so much attacking freedom as Chiellini? I realise this will reduce crosses from the right etc, but this could possibly be balanced by the MR having more crossing than the ML and the ML cutting inside more, or something similar.

Cheers.

retired_balls

Fantastic read Rashidi, really gives an insight into the depth of involvement / time you put in each match etc.......I am however beginning to grow more disillusioned with the game the more I read posts like this one and the one from Googen.

It appears that if you don't get the sliders in the right notch with the right balance then your formation will never work regardless of player attributes etc... Don't get me wrong I am not saying put the sliders where you want and with the best players in the world you will win regardless, what I am saying is, like myself, there are hundreds of people who experiment with a reasonable amount of insight into bulding tactics that they believe will work however never achieve anything with the game purely down to possibly the notches on the sliders not being correctly balanced i.e Mentality should have been 10 instead of 8 etc. This just doesn't make sense.

I have played 2007 to death recently and although I have won the league in Sweden 5 times in a row with IFK I am not satisfied with it. It is a real struggle. I know a lot of people say it on hear but I quite honestly batter teams to death with my tactics and team but I always struggle to win which suggests my tactics are wrong but I can not find out where they are failing. Possession is generally 51-55% in most games, pass completion is almost always 67%+ and I always, probably due to my players, create comfortable double figures for attempts but I never really win the amount of games or enjoy the success that the stats say that I could or what the 2d engine has just showed me.

I employ the following formations;

442 (attacking home - sarrows on RM/LM)
442 (counter away or home to better teams)
424 (attacking home - poor teams)
442 (defensive - hold lead etc- No arrows)

I personally always get the feeling that something is held back, I have by far the best players, my tactics when viewing the games show I have the superiority in most games but it doesn't translate itself like that.

The fact that you change formations so frequently and achieve success is highly unrealistic hence my comment that it is now a puzzle game rather than football. No team changes formations IRL with much regularity, 1 off occasions maybe but not opponent dependant. Look at the state of Liverpool currently, Benitez has lost the plot chopping and changing. Take my beloved Newcastle recently. A comfortable win over West Ham at home, Allardyce changes to 433 against Man City and we get thumped 3-1. I was at the match and I can tell you the players looked lost, they didn't know when to run forward, when to track back etc. It is totally unrealistic that you have to change formations and adapt tactics for every game in FM, my experiences of this are that performances drop IRL when this happens. Facts are facts tactics are important but player ability is king. Look at Leeds...I am doubtful that Dennis Wise with his wobbly eyes has all of a sudden become a tactical genious over the summer having got relegated. Fact is he has the best 16 players in the league they find themselves in and they have won 9 and drew 1.

This isn't a whinging post it is the reality of my experiences of the game. Maybe SI don't want the casual gamer to play anymore which is fine but in their quest to improve the genre the reality is being left behind.

retired_kellyk

oescusin a way we are better placed to get information on the game because of our involvement on the forums. One thing though the only person who knows the magic that is the engine is PaulC, everyone else including most of the guys at SI are in the same boat with all of us.

Mark I usually give players on both flanks identical instructions because I like predictability which is usually a bad thing. What you ask is very relevant and I would strongly recommend playing to the strengths you have at your disposal.

For example if I had two wingers one of whom had excellent ball control skills and another who had great pace and off the ball skills then my instructions would be different for both. For one I'd give him FWR often because of his great pace which would allow him to get behind the defensive line (always a good option) or I would elect to play a Ronaldo styled dribbler and have him either with mixed or no fwr but RWB often, if he has cutting in as one of his ppms then I'd tell him not to cross ball but run at defenders.

For your situation if one of the fullbacks is naturally a good attacking fullback then he gets FWR often, for Gallas, I'd give him no fwr and give him a low normal mentality, perhaps even highest notch of defensive.

retired_elpata

Erm I explain everything I do and in detail too.

Which is what happened in another thread when I did this just for Hammer.

Spot on mate.

We also want to play the game ad don't want to live on here 24/7 going into every single detail in as much depth as possible as thats just not realistic in terms of time we'd need to achieve this. Plus we get accused of cheating etc if someone tries to do what we did and you don't have the same results.

That can be hard when someone isn't open to the possiblity its what they are doing what is wrong and the lame excuses of bugs etc. I'm sorry but on the few times I have tried to aide you, you turned on me and made false accusations. So for me its not worth trying to explain to ignornat people something that they are so set against in the first place.

All I do is keep it all simple and try to understand what I am doing and observe the effects of the match engine when I change something.



All the likes of myself Rashidi and wwfan do is observe everything we do and see what impacts it has. We also participate in most discussions and learn off everyone. You only have to look at my post history to see how bad I was in my early discussions and didn't know what I was doing

We never stop learning, I find myself adapting to different things all the time. Going back a few years I used to chat in length to other memebers off here on IRC, MSN or by email. The likes of Buxton, Rashidi, Noel Gallagher, Welshwebwizard and many more, we all used to discuss tactics we had/were creating and the match engine. I learned so much by reading and participating in discussions it was unreal.

retired_kellyk

sven I do feel your pain and FM06 and FM07 did nothing to make things easier. The engines then needed you to be so "spot-on" it would be hard for people to take off and play the game.

What I always tell everyone is stop making the game complicated. Drop the numbers and the rules and just go to basics.

Basics of mentality

There are only 4 settings for mentality you need to remember...
1. Ultra defensive
2. Defensive
3. Norma
4. Attacking
5. Gungho

That's it..now take all the numbers and shove them aside. Understand what each one of them means.

1. My duty is to defend all the time, I will not take part in an attack and I will maintain the shape. I will stay behind the ball when possible. If the ball is not in my danger area I will hold my position.

2. Defensive
My duty is to defend, attacking is not a priority unless the team is already in an advanced attacking position. When we lose the ball, my immediate priority is to defend

3. Normal
I have to support my defense at all times and also support the attack. I take up a central role in support and will be guided more by my decisions, where the ball is and the instructions my manager gives me. If he tells me to make FWR I will do so when a good chance makes itself available. I will also try to keep possession of the ball as much as possible and prod the defense.

4. Attacking.
I spend most of my time, attacking, defending is not a priority unless the ball is near my defensive line, then I will drop back. If the ball is out of my defensive line, I will maintain a forward attacking position.

5. Gungho,
I will attack at any opportunity, my passes are always forward and I'm willing to take more riskier chances with passes.

That's how I think when I set up mentality. I decide which player needs to behave in that pattern and go accordingly. Forget the 6 and the 8 and the 2 and the 17. I for one find that disconcerting. Always remember that mentality guides positions and risk. Attack is attack, defend is defend.

Set your formations accordingly. I will begin a deeper discussions on sliders later, as no one knows what effects the sliders will have

retired_elpata

I think that is one simple sentence that sums up a lot of what goes on. A lot of people try using other peoples templates, rules etc.

Just to add to this; I then watch a game and see if I get any players occupying the same space and playing in the same areas. If I find this is happening, I tinker about with mentality a while until I become satisfied. If you end up with 2 players on top of each other then you know something is wrong. Just by alterin the mentality of 1 of them can solve something like this.