retired_princess160

DD, there we have it: as soon as someone suggests applying laws that apply to everyone, also to christians, the howling starts. 'Discrimination' my eye.

Your lot wouldn't dare playing on a level playing field. As soon as religion gets confronted with it, it's doomed and by claiming a level playing field is discrimination you admit as much, tbh.

Am I to understand that christians who are persecuted in countries where there is tyranny and a strong non-christian tradition, are the excuse for christians in Europe claiming the martyr-role?

Doesn't wash at all. Christians in Europe have been the tyrants and/or supporters of tyranny (up until Hitler, let's not bs around the bush about that. Don't even try and come with the 2 dorpspastoors who were the exception - the Pope condoned Nazis, full stop).

'Destroy religion', more martyr-nonsense. As soon as it's forced to play by the rules, it'll die off all by itself.

Hitler? Hitler realized full well that if he left the christian churches alone, they'd largely side with him or at least turn a blind eye. He was right.

As for that rapper, don't even start. I've never met a Theologue (? Theologician? Theologist?) who could debate properly. As soon as you confront them with logical and reasonable arguments, they stonewall on unproven claims and vicious circles. They only way to maintain belief has a foundation, is to believe in that. Logic plays no role.

retired_little.splash

theology is no science that's for sure

retired_zersmiller

Well, I must admint I didn't read the laws that much and jumped to conclusion.

Let me say this:
You should know that churches don't get 'subsidie' at all.
Quote:
Source: NIPO

Churches don't get 'subsidies', some church buildings get a tax privilege because of their monumental value.

At most we're playing on a level. You try to harm the churches financially. Most churches subsidise each other, and additionally fund a lot of (non-)christian charities both inside and outside Holland.

Look at the SGP (obviously not my favourite), they're the only 'major' politicaly party that don't get subsidies from the government. What happened? Their 'achterban' stepped in and funded the whole thing.
Christians are passionate about their belief, you can't get kill that. I don't get what your claim 'youre doomed if...' is based on, really.

Religion is growing rapidly, a lot more rapidly than atheism.

I do not claim a martyr-role at all. Why? Because I'm not martyred here. Discrespected or discriminated at most, but martyred? Certainly not.

I'm just pointing you to the fact that persecuting christians somehow only makes them flourish.
It happened at the beginning with the first christians in Rome and Judea.
Ant it happened to this day in China and North-Koea.

Well there have been much 'christian' tiranny, you'll never see me deny that.
The pope (Pius XI) actually spoke out against the Hitler and the Nazi-regime pretty firmly a lot of times.

I'm not deying our past, but I get it thrown in my face all the time.
You don't see me saying we should destroy socialism because it has more killings on 'it's name' than christianity (Stalin, Mao and Hitler).


Really, what's this based on?

Playing by the rules? A lot of countries have and had the rules to BREAK christians, but that didn't make christianity 'die off'. It made it grow.

Hitler didn't leave the churches alone at all. He persecuted the christians that confronted him with his crimes.
Still a lot of 'christians' in Germany supported the Nazi's, you ain't going to see me denying that either.
How one can read the Bible ('love and feed thy enemies') and approve of the Nazi regime at the same time is still completely beyond me.

Uhmm... I'm not sure you get what theology means. It simply means 'studies of God'. There are atheists theoligians too. So I don't see how you make it seem like it's impossible to have a rational debate with a theologian.
Matter of fact, there are a lot of public debates goig on lately between christians theologians/scientists/philosophers and atheists theologians/scientists/philosophers. A lot of them are pretty interesting...

But anyway, the point was that you laughed about the 'christian-rapper' thing. I didn't really get that so I pointed you to the fact that he was a pretty knowledgable guy that knew what he was talking about.

retired_selvinel

Another car crash of a thread from Abe. Worth it from him chastising someone for not understanding a complicated issue though :thup:

retired_princess160

Religion growing?

Kerksheid en Kerkelijkheid

People claiming to belong to a certain church remains stable or dwindles slightly.

At the same time, the number of people who practice their religion goes down clearly, apart from 'other' (largely Islam, one would say), which goes up ever so slightly (certainly not a tidal wave).

Kerkbezoek

Zelden of nooit >>>>> the rest and growing.

retired_zersmiller

Sorry about the many errors in my last post, but I was in a hurry.

Holland is a 'secular Staphorst' in world that's getting more religious everyday.

Check these stats.

These are the most reliable figures according to the experts. These statistics are used by media such as New York Times, Time Magazine, etc.

Religion has the future DJ, wether you like it or not.

retired_little.splash

sure, some stats are wrong cause they prove the opposite of your point

retired_kilo

Should non-Dutchies pass on the right-hand side?

retired_zersmiller

Huh? I never said DJ's 'stats' are wrong, matter of fact I think they're right.

DJ's stats are solely about Netherlands, my stats are about the whole world.

Holland ---> getting more secular
Rest of the world ---> getting more religious rapidly

retired_princess160

Pffff

Until I caugh up the stats for Germany, then it's Holland and Germany -vs- the rest of the world etc.

You have to believe to be a believer, eh.