retired_annmariealexander

\o/ Dutchisms ftw

But yeah, that's the distinction I'm trying to make. Let's just leave those who aren't doing anything wrong alone, because all we can achieve with them is getting them pished off.

Better to concentrate on exactly those who have problems, not the larger demographic group they could be lumped in with, because stats are just stats, they don't account for individuals. </BLOCKQUOTE>

So the people with the problems in your book are the criminal, unemployed Morrocans?
(That was my question)

So, in you opinion, there is no connection (oorzakelijk verband; i dunno the English equivalent for this) between the attitude of the Morrocan Community towards the country they live in and the people living in it and the 'problems' (which would, in effect, take the 'problems' in a broader perspective.)?

Do you have a (radical new) strategy with which we could actually achieve anything along those (your) lines as, so far, things are going from bad to worse.

retired_princess160

Can't put it any clearer than that. Those who cause/are/are victims of the problems are who they are. Those who do not have this problem, it makes no difference who they are.

It would be a lot easier if all Morrocans would all be part of such a thing. It ain't that way. Some random person whose parents came from Morroco who lives in let's say Leeuwarden is just as responsible for what some young street thugs in the Hague do as you and I.

Needs to be narrowed down, severely. The only community you could speak to as far as the upbringing and value of those kids is concerned, are their direct family and friends. And in many cases, you wonder if those have much influence at all. No one can tell me that a bunch of 16 year olds who'd stand on a street corner in Morroco whistling at women would be able to do so for longer than a few minutes before all hell came down on them.

Strategy? Let us, for once, apply the laws we have already. Nothing radical or new needed, I think.

Anyway, if I would be able to come up with instant brilliant solutions, I wouldn't be a two-bit helpdesk nerd, would I?

retired_annmariealexander

Just so i have it correctly

So what i understand from this is that you believe that there is nothing wrong with the way Morrocan kids are brought up?

The fact that so many exibit the 'behaviour' we talk about here is really beyond the control and moree importantly, responsibility of the parents / families? Just for reference: Do you remember the AD-article i showed you?

So basically don't fix it if it ain't broken? I thought we had established by now that things were pretty bad and getting worse the way we handle things now and have handled in the past. Even on the Left people acknowledge things have gone seriously wrong.

Well, i don't know. You could be a philantropist. Some people go out and collect money for the kidney foundation, you go and work in a help desk. With my recently aquired telephone skills (I stutter and i really hate to use the telephone; recently i was basically forced to set myself over that ) i have found new apriciation for the people at Helpdesks and Customer Services.

Well, it would have been nice, seeing as you respond rather emphatically towards how people like me shouldn't do this or think that, that you would have been able to come up with at least an alternative road to follow.

Everybody can be against something giving the Herman, it takes a bit more to come up with alternatives. I know that this generally was never neccessary for people like you but like everything, The Church must adept to the fact that their word is not swallowed without any critisism and questions anymore. The good 'ol days are gone in that respect i'm afraid

retired_princess160

Then you understand wrong.

A bunch of kids (including ones from Morrocan descent, it's not exclusively 'Morrocans' who have this issue and it certainly isn't all of them. I refer to my earlier remarks about stats -vs- individuals.) are growing up basically unsupervised. Lack of authority breeds lack of respect for authority equals not learning how to behave in a way that respects others' freedom. I do agree this is partly to blame on lacking parental supervision, but also on lacking assimilating forces in general.

If we say 'there is a problem, someone should do something. Let's blame the parents' but at the same time we can see that the parents lack the skills (or maybe the will, that's inconsequential to the issue, really) to actually do what's needed, we have the choice of sitting down and howling about it, or to try and get this run-wild types to get with the plan. Regardless of where they (or their parents) were born.

Not so fast. What exactly is it and how is it broken? I have the feeling that you have quite a different view on the answers to those questions than I do. Which is quite crucial, because different problems demand different solutions/strategies.

You'll find that on the Left (sic) people are generally looking for solutions without sweeping innocent people under the carpet, a nuance that is distinctly lacking on the 'Right'. It is, basically, even what sets left and right apart.

I suspect it's against a basic mindset you have about these issues (or else you wouldn't stubbornly continue to include it in well-neigh every post), but would you make an effort to finally quit the lame 'lump DJ in with an imaginary self-invented Leftist Church so I can put words and ideas in his mouth' mud-throwing?

retired_annmariealexander

Then you understand wrong.

A bunch of kids (including ones from Morrocan descent, it's not exclusively 'Morrocans' who have this issue and it certainly isn't all of them. I refer to my earlier remarks about stats -vs- individuals.) are growing up basically unsupervised. Lack of authority breeds lack of respect for authority equals not learning how to behave in a way that respects others' freedom. I do agree this is partly to blame on lacking parental supervision, but also on lacking assimilating forces in general.

If we say 'there is a problem, someone should do something. Let's blame the parents' but at the same time we can see that the parents lack the skills (or maybe the will, that's inconsequential to the issue, really) to actually do what's needed, we have the choice of sitting down and howling about it, or to try and get this run-wild types to get with the plan. Regardless of where they (or their parents) were born. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, that's clear. I disagree with your assesment that the parental (in the boradest sense of the word) aspect in this misbehaviour solely revolves around parents / imans not giving enough supervising which would encourage this kind of behaviour. I showed you this earlier as a prime example as to which extent i believe loads of Morrocan / Muslim kids are brought up. I mean i somehow doubt that 4-year old, 5-year old kids can come up with fascist concepts like this by themselves.

The fact that you can ignore these kind of things baffle me in all fairness and it's even more difficult for me to believe that you would be as forgiving had the situation been the other way around.



How many times do we need to re-aquint ourselves with the subject i wonder? 'It' being the behaviour of Morrocan Youths in Holland.

And yes, my answers to these problems are very different from your attitude towards them but that's not important at the moment. We're talking about your world here. I just want to know which answers your church / Ideology has for this but, so far, it doesn't seem to involve anything except continue to look the other way.

I'm sure it's good enough for people like yourself but if you want to regain your grip on public opinion again you have to give people something otherwise people will continue to leave the flock.


Well, why don't you offer me some of those solutions that you guys have come up with then.

That's all i want tbh.

I suspect it's against a basic mindset you have about these issues (or else you wouldn't stubbornly continue to include it in well-neigh every post), but would you make an effort to finally quit the lame 'lump DJ in with an imaginary self-invented Leftist Church so I can put words and ideas in his mouth' mud-throwing?[/QUOTE]

Ach, mud-throwing. I just feel that people with Extreme views like yourselve behave in so many ways like religious fundamentalists in the sense of being capable of blotting out any stimuli that does not fit the mold of the ideology. The intolerance towards those who question the ideology (en dan heb jij het over het creëren van een vijandbeeld?) without being able of any self-reflection.

Don't get me wrong though, if i was to discuss things with a Blood & Honor member, i probably would experience exactly the same behaviour with them that you exibit when talking to me.

But the chances of this are pretty remote as these people don't claim credibility as a political partner. They are, generally, the same intellectual level as the worst of ADO's football Hooligans. You don't talk politics and / or social issues with those people.

I rate you, despite that i disagree with you (keeping it mildly here), somewhat higher. But that's why i think the Church-analogy is valid. Still, if it bothers you i can leave it be. I agree it might overskip (??) the mark and bringing it up might not improve the climate of discussion.

retired_princess160

Of course they don't, but what on earth is 'loads' supposed to mean? A majority? 25%? 10%? 1%? If this isn't an excess of the largest order, then what? Before you start spouting about 'blindness' or something, read on:

In the same sense that I can ignore people chasing a black family out of their village. It's fooking disgraceful, but am I trying to extrapolate a 'Dutch' behaviour from what these Dutch kids did?

Forgiving? Nah. Civilized society will deal with them in due time. As we will with those racist Dutch kiddies.

If you still tar all Morrocan youths in Holland (or all of the Netherlands for that matter ) with the same brush, we're not going to get very far discussing this. Until you give up this discriminating and plainly wrong attitude, your solutions are nil and void. How you are still not able to admit that that is simply wrong, baffles me.

Oh? We discuss a problem here and because I disagree with you, my very world has to be called into doubt? I wonder why we have to digress from discussing the problem time and time again.

Literally stopped reading here. I've spoken about your mud-flinging often enough.

I'm sorry you seem to lack the decency to stop doing it.

retired_annmariealexander

DJ, we're really not on the same page and we never will i fear.

I'm making an effort, giving you a platform to explain to me, somebody who disagrees with you on so many points, to convince me of your views or at least explain to me what they are and yet you seem hardly able to provide an alternative view point beyond telling me how wrong i am that i hold every indiviudal Morrocan responsible for it. I've told you a zillion times that this isn't true but you seem to continuously need to go back to that accusation over and over again just to get away from the fact that you can't offer me alternatives.

So, untill you can provide me with more then just saying what we're not allowed to think, say and do and come up with alternatives of how we should handle things i'll leave you to have the last word, ok?

On a related note btw: Do you think we could turn this around where you offer me the space and room to expand on my ideas or am i correct in assuming that this ain't never going to happen? I'm asking because of

Your tolerance for critisism is very limited.

And now i'm only asking questions i would not have needed to have asked if you'd simply commit to something. Imagine what would happen to you when i was to offer you my opinions.....

So, i'll pass on that. I don't think i have anything to gain in maintaining the hope of having a constructive conversation with you in this.

A yellow Card is booking enough

I had hoped you'd be able to come up with at least something but your convictions seem to go only so far as telling people what NOT to do and how wrong other people are. And that hardly requires any ideas of yourself. Just ask Jacobse en Van Es.

But you can still taunt me about AZ in the Eredivisie thread though. On other boards fans of Ajax and other clubs are having a field day pestering AZ-fans........

retired_princess160

You'll have to stop saying it before I believe it...

Mudflinging does not equal criticism. There is no Left Church and whatever you have invented that it says is certainly not something I have said. I've answered that for the last time now. Try me. Any discussion we have in the future will fall on its arse if you do it again. Your choice.

Nah, that would be kicking a person when he's down. Apart from that: I like AZ and adore King Louis. I know every fan from every team hates Ajax, but from my POV we only have one real dislikable rival.

retired_ks reddy

Unlike you conciliatory pair of raving left-footers, shome Cheesepackers still know how to start a ruck.

I do like his catchphrase regarding his Afghan troops - "What the hell are zey shooting at?"

His definition of 'under heavy fire' might be a little odd, but it does the job and gets the A-10s in to everyone's obvious enjoyment. The boy even finds time to shmoke shome of that marvellous shkunk you have towards the end. Can't fault him :thup:

retired_little.splash

well done Dutch troups