retired_senegalg

I actually find the idea of Europe as a country rather an exciting and nice one when taken in theory and without context. In reality I'm not so keen - a common currency, common foreign policy and so on seem pretty much impractical within today's climate. The idea of a European superstate is essentially utopian and I get a sense that there are a lot of bureaucrats in Brussels who have decided that it's all a great idea and are dragging hundreds of millions of people towards something that those people don't really want atm. I find that all rather frightening.

What really fascinates me though is the way Europe is simultaneously becoming ever closer and ever more divided. In the 20 years, we've seen the creation of the EU and a certain amount of sovereignty being lost to Brussels at the same time as we've devolved powers to Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments. It's a strange paradox of European politics - something similar is happening in Spain, is it not?

retired_lyriclemelodee

From what the other countries seem to be saying "how is UK being so ****ing troublesome" - I thought we had a few more than most?

retired_navy0614

:thup: can you tattoo that onto every foaming at the mouth little englander kthx?

retired_senegalg

Certainly. It'd lose by a landslide. Mostly because people have little confidence in the EU rather than knowing anything about the constitution.

But tbf, it's the EU that's to blame for that. </BLOCKQUOTE>
And too many people have "little Englander" attitudes and can't see beyond that. It's not that they lack confidence, it's just that they're ignorant of what's going on.

The people I think you're talking about are those who do know a bit about the EU, but they are in a minority imo.

I agree with imps. I think there's a lot wrong with the way the EU is currently organised and run... but we should still be moving towards it. </BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd agree with that too. I take a rather Burkean view on this in that I'm not convinced it's our generation's 'right' to just remove ourselves from a union that does benefit us. Evolution, not revolution and all that. Let's work to improve what has the potential to be a pretty effective organisation rather than just throw it out because of what are temporary institutional issues that can be solved.

retired_breakbred101

The content of it is deemed to be mostly the same by the scrutiny committes. Have you read it?

retired_senegalg

All secondary legislation must conform to EU law so we are affected by the Charter of Fundamental rights in an indirect fashion, tbf.

retired_navy0614

The content of it is deemed to be mostly the same by the scrutiny committes. Have you read it? </BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't matter how similar it is, if the "meat" that would require a referendum is removed/red-lined.

Ventil

We'll still get dicked over by the French farmers and Spanish fishermen so what's going to change?

retired_senegalg

The content of it is deemed to be mostly the same by the scrutiny committes. Have you read it? </BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't matter how similar it is, if the "meat" that would require a referendum is removed/red-lined. </BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is in determining what that 'meat' is. It always strikes me as strange when the government say 'we've got our red lines' as a justification for not calling a referendum despite the fact that they were the ones who created the red lines. They need to be doing more to actually explain what those red lines are, why they are so significant and why they mean we don't need a constitution rather than acting as though these red lines are some catch-all solution. The government creates the rules, plays by them and then expects praise for obeying them. It's all too simplistic.

retired_princesspouty

yeah but they'd then be European Farmers and European Fishermen... which sounds so much nicer doesn't it?

The whole Spanish fishermen thing was probably the first outrage I heard against the whole idea of the EU... must be going back 15-20 years maybe?