[retired_bliss123]

Originally posted by theis:
I never said I was excited by this result. I was just saying that as traditionally our forwards have been our strength but in recent years we have fallen behind other teams in having forwards that can dominate to such an extent that the backs are there for finishing as much as anything else.

I do get the feeling though that Ashton is scared of attempting to play a flowing attacking style of rugby, mainly because he isn't confident enough in our backs currently to pull it off. If you are in charge of the all backs where the national industry seems to be producing jazzy backs then thats fine. Whereas for England the options have been severly limited for several years. To the extent that we've had to recall Jason Robinson (amazing though he is) despite the fact that his club career is effectively finished.

yep i agree there, i think after what will probably be a disappointing world cup, we'll go back to the drawing board and let the young backs have a far bigger say in the way the attack is run. let them develop it over the next 4 years, and have a better crack at it next time. i think it's the age of our more creative backs that may be holding us back - they're perhaps 2 or 3 years too young this time around, but i'd rather we played that way than waste our time with the failing forwards-first system

[retired_kevh16]

true, we should probably subscribe to the theory that our forwards aren't good enough this time round get us close to winning the WC so therefore we should it would be better all round if played to our most promising areas.

However there is also the argument that you should always put out your best team and give it your best shot in a WC year. For example we are playing Jason Robinson, someone who will quit rugby for good as soon as England drop out of the tournament and who isn't miles ahead of his nearest replacement (assuming a fit Cueto) either Strettle or Tait.

[retired_derek]

Either that, or Wales have a truly appalling second string.

Wasn't really a second string.

It was a combination of three sets of players.

Set 1) Players that Jenkins doesn't want to include but really has to - Chris Horsman, Alan Wyn Jones, Colin Charvis. (only Wyn Jones was truly rubbish out of these three today, Horsman was trying but can't do much when the other two front rowers are dreadful)

Set 2) Players Jenkins seems determined to include despite them being crap and haven't really even been second choice - Iestyn Thomas, Huw Bennett, , Will James

Set 3) Players who have been good in the past who shouldnt be playing International rugby anymore - Robert Sidoli, Michael Owen.

[retired_drumcook]

Originally posted by Gregg Carter:
I understand that theis, but it's the England way that i don't like. It's not how a lot of the clubs play so i dont understand why they keep with it.

Yeah but the clubs aren't forced to play an entire team full of English players to do it with

It's all about the forwards utterly dominating and ensuring that they push foward and get the points that way, if they need the backs, they have them there to use. - The commentator even said during the game that the scrum half was effectively playing as a forward.

Ashton said something along the lines of 'if you r pack can bust it in from five yards, then why put it through ten pairs of hands to achieve the same result'. And he's dead right.

[retired_kevh16]

tbh whilst I believe that playing a forward dominated game is our best option for this world cup I think afterwards we must change.

England no longer hold a competitive advantage of having a strong pack with a superb goal kicker behind them. This is mainly because whilst our pack is still massive it doesn't have the same ball handling skills/balance of the forwards that played 4 years ago.

However there are several extremely promising young backs coming through and whilst England will always produce huge forwards who will be able to compete with almost all other countries I doubt we will be able to win on that strength alone. IMO therefore we must build a team that can show creativity when needed as well.

[retired_drumcook]

It's not about playing a forward dominated game or a more balanced game. England haven't actually aspired to 10 man rugby since the days of Dean Richards, who seemed to regard a winger touching the ball as a personal slap in the face.

The problem England have is not that the ball doesn't get released to the backs, its that it regularly gets there too slowly once it is released. Even yesterday some of the ruck ball was excrutiatingly slow. Watch NZ or the Boks and thats the biggest advantage they have.

[retired_kevh16]

England team to play France at Twickenham, Saturday 11 August (1700 KO):

Abendanon (Bath), Sackey (Wasps), Noon (Newcastle), Catt (London Irish, capt) Lewsey (Wasps), Barkley (Bath), Perry (Bristol); Sheridan (Sale), Regan (Bristol), Stevens (Bath), Shaw (Wasps), Kay (Leicester), Haskell (Wasps), Moody (Leicester,) Dallaglio (Wasps).
Replacements: Mears (Bath), Vickery (Wasps), Corry (Leicester), Worsley (Wasps), Gomarsall (Harlequins), Wilkinson (Newcastle), Cipriani (Wasps)

Looks as though Hodgson's world cup hopes are pretty much over.

[Ventil]

Strettle is out for 12 weeks so no World Cup for the young lad.

Real shame there, but thankfully the wing is one position where we have more than adequate depth.

[retired_bliss123]

gutted for him, looked so promising in the 6 nations. DWS' world cup also over, shame as he's the best number 8 in the country

[retired_kevh16]

aye, means Dallaglio is probably going to go to the world cup despite being past it.