[retired_hvporter]

Originally posted by yovan:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Gav Stone:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Omnislash:
But anyhow, if Barca fields 4 pure attacking players on at once it's not going to work. Somebody has to defend. Eto'o and Ronaldinho don't know how to, Messi way too small and he should be running at defenders not after them.

Best thing Barca should do is simply rotate 4 players over the 3 attacking position. That way they can hold possession in midfield and not sacrifice defense, which was a weak point for Barca last season.

Ah but they will have six defenders on the pitch, as Yovan shot me down with yesterday when I made the same point.

If Barcelona are going to succeed next season, they do need some sort semblance of balance. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Gav, Capello has played several times with 4 forwards, Capello not Wenger or Rijkkard.

At Juve he had (occasionally) Viera and Emerson in the middle, Mutu and Del Piero on the wings and Ibra and Trez upfront. At Real, Raúl and Robinho on the wings and two strikers. Lippi has done that in Italy.

I have seen that formation several times. You need balance ofc but Messi and Eto’o on the wings can do a decent job, especially Eto’o. </BLOCKQUOTE>

You've kind of proved my point with your Juve analogy of Capello there. True, at times (very, very rare times), he played Mutu and Del Piero out wide with Ibra and Trez in attack. But they were played AS WINGERS. A major, major difference to everything you have said about your Barcelona dream ticket. On top of that, he played with two of the best defensive midfielders in the world mopping up and setting up - Vieira and Emerson. They were both on top of their game when they played together early in 05/06 for Juve. If it wasn't for those two doing their mopping up job, Juve would not have 'done so well' that season (until the match-fixing came out). Lippi has done it as a desperate measure in matches, but then so has Steve McClaren at Middlesbrough. It is hardly the sort of system you can play effectively for ninety minutes, week in and week out, is it?

How effective was Raul on the wings this season? Correct me with statistics if you may, but I am of the opinion he has not had a good season.

Like you say, you do need balance for the formation to work (are you now saying you see it as a 4-2-4 then? or 4-4-2? Or what?). Balance also needs the players to perform those roles effectively though. Have Barca got a DM in the class of an in-form Emerson or a Vieira of 2-3 season ago? I don't think so. You need the defensive midfielders (emphasis on the 'D' word there) to be on top of their game, fit, alert and of good quality for this to work.

And then there is the space on the flanks, as you cannot tell me the likes of Eto'o, Messi, Henry, etc will track back and defend for a full ninety minutes?

And how would this system of 'six defenders and four forwards' be beaten? To keep it in simplistic terms, easily. Sit back, soak up the pressure, 1-2 man marking on the dangerous players, then hit them on the break, out wide.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a team win a major trophy by playing quality, attacking football and having men going forward, rather than on the back foot. Sadly though we haven't seen the like of this for over thirty years and I suspect we are unlikely to do so again, either.

[retired_mystikalpharie]

Originally posted by R4M:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by yovan:
That’s the locker room.

I’m talking about tactics. Who picked Rijkaard? And Van Basten? (ask the Dutch of the forum), who tried to chance the tactic of Holland U21 in the Euro?

Laporta picked Rijkaard (And van Basten as an option should Rijkaard fail). Heeding advice of cruyff? most probably yes. During the 1st season its quite probable that Cruyff reccomended the 4-3-3 and Rijkaard gave it a shot. Its possible, but I don't know for sure. All I know is that it worked.

I doubt that, since then, Cruyff has had more influence than the one given to him by the media. The change to a 3-4-3 system in the middle of this season doesn't fit his doctrine at all (not because the system isn't liked by him, but because clearly Barça had not the players needed to make it work successfully), and the insistence of Rijkaard with that system doesn't fit with a Cruyff demand aswell. </BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we are going in circles.

Rijkaard was the third option, after Koeman and Hiddink. We wanted a Dutch manager, yes or yes. Who decided that? because Rossell wanted Scolari.

Cruyff supported Laporta in 2003 and Laporta’s sporting director was Txiki. In 2000 Cruyff supported Bassat and Bassat’s sporting director was Txiki. A coincidence? I don’t think so.

Cruyff wanted to have some power at Barça like he has in the Dutch FA. Does he pick the teams of Holland or Barça? Cleary no (I said that he won’t allow us to chance the formation to criticize him).

Recently the U21s Dutch coach said that you have to pay attention to what Cruyff says but not necessarily do what he wants. Holland U21s were playing 4-4-2.

The 3-4-3 was an idea of Eusebio AFAIK and Rijkaard agreed that we needed a change.

<BLOCKQUOTE> Cruyff, the footballer, was an icon, a legend, but Cruyff the manager is the most influential person in our history. We didn’t have a style before the dream team and now we have a style, an evolution, without natural wingers, ok, but our style is the Ajax style.

Ajax has a striker, Babel, playing on left. The Ajax style is about attacking/attractive football, not about two natural wingers.

Still, I don't see where my argument fails. For starters Ajax has played with wingers for decades, doesn't matter what it is like right now. But that's not the argument I'm trying to make anyway.

My argument is that Barcelona was an offensive, stilish team since at least the 50s (I simply know too little about the history of the club before that) with the likes of Kubala playing in the team. Decades before Cruyff was even a known name Barcelona was already an exponent of offensive, quality football.

Then Cruyff came. He didn't bring offensive football with him. He just was the highest exponent at the moment of the dutch total football, the most admired offensive football of the time. He was the total player who could play anywhere, anytime. For sure he was a huge influence, but the offensive doctrine of Barcelona goes farther back than this.

As I said before, what cruyff did in barcelona as a player was a lot, and what he did as a coach was nothing short of a miracle. He turned a team used to lose into a proud winning machine, and with him Barcelona reached probably the highest peak of quality football of its history up to then.

Of course there's a legacy from that. A huge one. And I'm glad there it is such a legacy, btw, and that Cruyff still is a respected being within barcelona, for I rate him as one of the most intelligent persons in world football. </BLOCKQUOTE>

The Ajax style is a concept of football NOT a formation, that is what I’m saying.

We generally have been an offensive team but we have had very defensive managers like Helenio Herrara (loved by the fans at the time). After the dream team a coach like Herrera or Capello is unthinkable.

One example is Arsenal. The have a history but Wenger has changed their history, now Arsenal fans are different to the rest and if Wenger left they will understand it. Arsenal have a new mentality, they are a new club.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
And the CL final and our attitude? At least Rijkaard has never disrespect a team.

Cruyff was rude and egocentrical. And clearly didn't really care about doing things softly. If he had to do something he would do it ,and to the hell with the consequences.

He did the right thing the wrong way. The era of the dream team was definitely over, and a transition was needed. The attitude of the team in the CL final came from four days of celebration of a league won in the last match, and the relax from a group of players who thought the final was won even before stepping into the pitch. Which, btw has a resemblance on what has happened this year, for barcelona has played all the league as if they thought they were already the champions without actually earning it.

It was a disaster, but I can't put all, or most, of the blame cruyff. He was to be blamed, yeah, but I think he had a lower responsability on what it happened than the team itself.

Anyway, the team had reached the end of a cycle and was the time for a renovation. Cruyff did this successfully (the roots of the team that won the cup winners' cup, the spanish cup, two leagues in a row, etc, the next years can be traced directly to him), but he did it in a harsh and very wrong way, treating players who had given everything for the club quite unfairly. But the rest?...it was ok for me. </BLOCKQUOTE>

And that was my point. Same situation, different characters. We were much better than Milan and they humiliated us like Sevilla in Monaco for example.

<BLOCKQUOTE> There was a planning, you have a tactic and you try to fill the positions. They wanted to play 4-2-3-1 and Ronaldinho was the AMC of that team. Overmars, GarcÃ*a, Quaresma and Luis Enrique were the winger and Kluivert and Saviola the strikers, two players per position.

I insist: ronaldinho was the AMC of that team because it was at Barcelona because of Rosell and Laporta's desire. Not because of Rijkaard's. He never asked for him in the first place and since the start he saw that as an AMC within that system Ronaldinho didn't deliver what was clearly within him. </BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Ronaldinho is a natural AMC and we signed a natural AMC to play him in his natural position. The tactic was a consensus like all the signings. In fact that’s the reason Rossell left the club, to give more power to Rijkaard. Now Rijkaard and Txiki decide the players we need (back then it was between Rossell and Txiki with the consent of Rijkaard).

<BLOCKQUOTE>Rijkaard knew where to put him but it didn’t work. It’s completely different from not knowing where to play him.

Well, I just quoted what he reportedly said. I don't know if he said it or not. But if those words are true, Rijkaard had no idea where to play him back at that time. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Rijkaard had no idea how to win games.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
We had a tactic and Ronaldinho was signed to be the AMC. It didn’t work, we signed Davids and we started playing 4-3-3.

And instantly ronaldinho advanced from being a massively succesfull player to be the best player within the spanih league. Enough proof he's best as a left wing that as AMC?. I don't know for that 4-5-1 system by rijkaard had some weak points (such as having no creativity in the midfield with motta-gerard, the initial two DMCs used by him) that clearly restricted his freedom if he wanted to play the ball, and the balls he could play if he wanted to go up the pitch. Maybe with another players he would've played great there? who knows

but for now what we can prove is that an AMC he played well but as AML he simply rocked the league. Which has been my point the whole thread </BLOCKQUOTE>

The 4-3-3 was not a fluke. The team was in the middle of the table, underperforming, the stuff were losing the faith in several players (Kluivert, Gerard, …) and they decided to change the tactic. They quickly signed a physical midfielder, Davids, to play with three midfielders (Cocu as holding midfielder, Davis as aggressive/defensive minded MC and moved Xavi up, giving him more freedom).

I’m not saying what is Ronaldinho’s best position, did I said that?

<BLOCKQUOTE> I’m talking about this season, mainly because I don’t care about the past.

I do care about it. I mean: if a player as ronaldinho has done the fantastic 3 seasons he has done at barcelona I don't want to get rid of him just by a bad fourth one. He has promised to correct his errors and be the one he was through hard work and serious training. And I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because of those three fantastic seasons.

Had he been like this all those four years, I would sell him to the first bidder. but it is not the case-so yeah...I do care a bit about the past . </BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m saying that Ronaldinho was crap (has been) and I don’t care about his 21 goal or his form two years ago. The current Ronaldinho is surely worse than Eto’o, Messi or Henry.

<BLOCKQUOTE>At Real Madrid with Capello he would have played less than Casssano.

At REal Madrid with capello, Ronaldinho would've NEVER lost 80 training sessions. Nor 40. Nor 20. Nor 10.

And so, he would've played every match. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but you are changing the reality. IRL Ronaldinho has not train and THAT player wouldn’t have played a game in another pro team.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Do you know that Ronaldinho is an adult? It’s like blaming your teacher or you father for being a little lazy ****.

Actually there's more truth on that than what you seem to give credit for. Cracks as Ronaldinho (others are different) need a specific guidance from the technical staff to never lose the right track. If that guidance is lacking, the player starts doing whatever he sees fit, and that's a disaster.

I repeat I don't lift the blame attached to ronaldinho. He has a lot of things to fix and work to do to make up for his errors this season. But I really believe he will do it. And doing it he will turn to be the best ronaldinho we have seen until now, for if with a terrible fitness such as the one displayed by him this season he has achieved the numbers he has, if fit he'll be nothing short of a hurricane. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Ronaldinho has a personal trainer and he has the money to have a gym at home. He only works two hours a day. The problem of Ronaldinho (and Rijkaard supported him) is that he didn’t notice that his form was a disgrace till the end of the season. I can blame Rijkaard for losing against Liverpool but not for that.


PS: We agree re Eto’o and Ronnie.
PS2: Longest post ever?

[retired_barbie34]

1 hour to the Henry press conference and he (which I think we all knew anyway) has got the 14 shirt

[trotamundos]

heh, this is great.

I agree on Valdes btw. Mentally defficient imo. Just wondered how he'd react if he was really challenged. Sometimes it brings the best out of people.

[retired_kimmymarlo]

Originally posted by R4M:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Nick OGS20:
yours.

and it's really validating to hear all this praise for Barcelona, I really despaired for OTF after it seemed everyone here were Franco-loving fascists.

O/ </BLOCKQUOTE>


I dismissed this comment at first for being blatantly OT, but I'd like to make a small comment.

Not every (and by far not the majority) of the Real Madrid supporters are franco-loving fascists. Just as much that not every (and by far not the majority) of the Barcelona supporters are catalonian independentist republicans.


In any case I think political comments of that kind are unneeded in a football discussion. But that's just me.[/QUOTE]a mere quip, my friend.

[retired_kimmymarlo]

and though I understand what some are saying about the team being unbalanced if the Big Four (yeah, I called them the Big Four) are all played at once, all I can in response is wait and see.

I think that both Messi and Eto'o are underrated in terms of their ability to track back. we shall see, however.

[retired_GodsMyWitness]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:
and though I understand what some are saying about the team being unbalanced if the Big Four (yeah, I called them the Big Four) are all played at once, all I can in response is wait and see.

I think that both Messi and Eto'o are underrated in terms of their ability to track back. we shall see, however.

Eto'o and Messi can track back, their pace alone would add huge pressure on the player with the ball.

However, simply because your player can perform both offensive and defensive duty doesn't make it better than just concentrate on one.

Right now, Eto'o and Messi rarely track back and most of the time they stay in space and wait for opportunity to strike. If they were to ask to track back the opposition, not only do they spend alot more energy running after the ball, they would be back further away from enemy goal and they won't be in a good attacking position when in position. This ultimately would contribute to their limited effectiveness.

Eto'o is Barca's most prolific and efficient goalscorer, while Messi is their best attacking player from open play. By having a restriction on either of their attacking prowess would be a big blow to the team.

But yes, we won't know how it will turn out until we see it. Until then this is all just theory.

[retired_GodsMyWitness]

they won't be in a good attacking position when in possession <STRIKE>position</STRIKE> .

edit

[retired_mystikalpharie]

Originally posted by Gav Stone:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by yovan:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Gav Stone:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Omnislash:
But anyhow, if Barca fields 4 pure attacking players on at once it's not going to work. Somebody has to defend. Eto'o and Ronaldinho don't know how to, Messi way too small and he should be running at defenders not after them.

Best thing Barca should do is simply rotate 4 players over the 3 attacking position. That way they can hold possession in midfield and not sacrifice defense, which was a weak point for Barca last season.

Ah but they will have six defenders on the pitch, as Yovan shot me down with yesterday when I made the same point.

If Barcelona are going to succeed next season, they do need some sort semblance of balance. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Gav, Capello has played several times with 4 forwards, Capello not Wenger or Rijkkard.

At Juve he had (occasionally) Viera and Emerson in the middle, Mutu and Del Piero on the wings and Ibra and Trez upfront. At Real, Raúl and Robinho on the wings and two strikers. Lippi has done that in Italy.

I have seen that formation several times. You need balance ofc but Messi and Eto’o on the wings can do a decent job, especially Eto’o. </BLOCKQUOTE>

You've kind of proved my point with your Juve analogy of Capello there. True, at times (very, very rare times), he played Mutu and Del Piero out wide with Ibra and Trez in attack. But they were played AS WINGERS. A major, major difference to everything you have said about your Barcelona dream ticket. On top of that, he played with two of the best defensive midfielders in the world mopping up and setting up - Vieira and Emerson. They were both on top of their game when they played together early in 05/06 for Juve. If it wasn't for those two doing their mopping up job, Juve would not have 'done so well' that season (until the match-fixing came out). Lippi has done it as a desperate measure in matches, but then so has Steve McClaren at Middlesbrough. It is hardly the sort of system you can play effectively for ninety minutes, week in and week out, is it?

How effective was Raul on the wings this season? Correct me with statistics if you may, but I am of the opinion he has not had a good season.

Like you say, you do need balance for the formation to work (are you now saying you see it as a 4-2-4 then? or 4-4-2? Or what?). Balance also needs the players to perform those roles effectively though. Have Barca got a DM in the class of an in-form Emerson or a Vieira of 2-3 season ago? I don't think so. You need the defensive midfielders (emphasis on the 'D' word there) to be on top of their game, fit, alert and of good quality for this to work.

And then there is the space on the flanks, as you cannot tell me the likes of Eto'o, Messi, Henry, etc will track back and defend for a full ninety minutes?

And how would this system of 'six defenders and four forwards' be beaten? To keep it in simplistic terms, easily. Sit back, soak up the pressure, 1-2 man marking on the dangerous players, then hit them on the break, out wide.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a team win a major trophy by playing quality, attacking football and having men going forward, rather than on the back foot. Sadly though we haven't seen the like of this for over thirty years and I suspect we are unlikely to do so again, either. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Gav, we agree and you don’t know it.

If you read La Liga thread (page 36) you will see that I think that Barça need two defensive midfielders (I named De Rossi and Poulsen). With the current squad that formation is impossible. I’m talking about the 4-4-2 of Capello with two of the forwards (Messi and Eto’o are the best candidates IMO) playing as winger.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> DMCDMCMessiEto’o Ronaldinho Henry</pre>

And how would this system of 'six defenders and four forwards' be beaten? To keep it in simplistic terms, easily. Sit back, soak up the pressure, 1-2 man marking on the dangerous players, then hit them on the break, out wide.

It was only a concept, not a tactic. 6 players working for the Big Four (as Andy named them). The defensive midfielders are defensive midfielders first and the full backs are defenders first.

[retired_mystikalpharie]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:
and though I understand what some are saying about the team being unbalanced if the Big Four (yeah, I called them the Big Four) are all played at once, all I can in response is wait and see.

I think that both Messi and Eto'o are underrated in terms of their ability to track back. we shall see, however.

I agree with you re Eto’o and Messi, especially the first one.