[retired_GodsMyWitness]

Either sit him on the bench or if he isn't happy to do that, sell him I guess. If any player that no longer fits into the plans then that's the only options for them. Iniesta is better anyway.

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by Omnislash:

I still think 4 full-time attackers are way too much on the pitch, Brazil tried it and failed miserably at World Cup

They lacked a proper creation line to control possession. Emerson and Ze Roberto arent what I could call exactly playmakers. Xavi or Iniesta are both good in pressure and defending duties and are exceptional when playing the ball.

Also Brazil had a serious issue putting players out of their natural positions. They weren't using a 4-5-1 but rather a 4-3-3 of some sorts. With a 4-3-3 it's a given: those four can't play together. With a 4-5-1, they can if the midfield holds when in defence and the defence is competitive. And barcelona's complies both requirements ...or seems to.

Real Madrid tried it and they didn't win anything for 3 years.

That's not true. Zidane-Raul-Ronaldo-Figo won one league. And was darned near winning a second in a row, but they collapsed some weeks before the league's ending because of the improper management of the group (80% of the matches played by just 13 players, two of them being older than 31, and one of them being ronaldo, while fighting for three competitions. They simply got phisically fried).

And the problem with Real Madrid was, too, that there was nothing behind them to hold the other team. Makelele was gone, the defence was in shambles, there existed no true defensive setup, nor pressure tactics, nothing in place. And real madrid has lacked a DM capable of playing the ball for ages. There were too many problems in too many fronts...yet those four almost won the league for them, alone.

The players theselfs were a problem, too. Low discipline, bad trainings, and a wild personal life.

Too many problems to cope with. They collapsed because of them, not because the up four guys were stars.

Especially considering Iniesta, Deco and Toure and all more attacking minded than defensive minded.

I haven't seen toure play that much, but I think he plays the contention midfield role in Ivory coast, and that he does a good role there.

Xavi and Iniesta defensive qualities are much, much, much overlooked by the casual watcher. But they're great at it. They're not the strongest or highest guys around but they have a great tactical discipline, they run a lot, they cut a lot of passes and steal a lot of balls. You should check Iniesta and Xavi steal stadistics for the last 3 years in the spanish league. You will be surprised.

This formation won't guarantee them possession like now, even though fearsome on paper, I feel that the attack and defense lack that link between them.

The link comes from iniesta/xavi and ronaldinho in playmaker role. Bassically you're getting the deco position for him, with total freedom, and in exchange, you put Xavi/iniesta current position deeper on the field along the true DMC to give him extra defensive support.

The link with the upper guys would exist just as it exists now, but ronaldinho will play a much bigger part in the creation role than now with that system. And that is great, btw.

Which will be a key loss as there won't be any smooth transition for counter-attack or build-up play.

as I say, the bassic change of all the 4-5-1 concept is taking the 4-3-3, (which is in fact a 4-1-2-2-1) and turn it into a "4-2-1-2-1". There's no problem with the defence-forward transition. Right now there are two players doing that (Deco-Xavi), with this system there will be two players doing that (Xavi-Ronaldinho), but sacrifizing much of Xavi's freedom of movement when on attack.

It's a fair tradeoff. and I think it can work. Time will tell. Don't forget this is just an idea I happened to have. Doesn't mean it is what Rijkaard has in mind.

[retired_bernadette downing]

Originally posted by Omnislash:
But anyhow, if Barca fields 4 pure attacking players on at once it's not going to work. Somebody has to defend. Eto'o and Ronaldinho don't know how to, Messi way too small and he should be running at defenders not after them.

Why shouldn't it work?

If Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Henry and Messi are all in the same starting XI, I can't see many opposition full backs bombing forward to help their own teams attacks.

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by GingerFurball:

Why shouldn't it work?

if Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Henry and Messi are all in the same starting XI, I can't see many opposition full backs bombing forward to help their own teams attacks.

and even if they do. The guys in the wings can and will help in defence. Eto'o did it in the CL final when he was playing on BArcelona's left (in fact he was the MVP of the final playing from there), Messi gives a lot of help in defending duties ,too. Both Eto'o and Messi give everything in the pitch, so that won't be a proble.

[retired_GodsMyWitness]

I haven't seen toure play that much, but I think he plays the contention midfield role in Ivory coast, and that he does a good role there.

Xavi and Iniesta defensive qualities are much, much, much overlooked by the casual watcher. But they're great at it. They're not the strongest or highest guys around but they have a great tactical discipline, they run a lot, they cut a lot of passes and steal a lot of balls. You should check Iniesta and Xavi steal stadistics for the last 3 years in the spanish league. You will be surprised.

lol of course Xavi is great defensively, that's why I didn't name him. Iniesta is good, but if you heap defensive burden on him then his effectiveness will be limited. He was possibly Barcelona's best player over the whole season and his attacking football is what he does best. Right now he has Marquez and Xavi behind him and he does a great job in breaking up plays and making tackles, but that is different to if he is required to break up plays and tackle.

The link comes from iniesta/xavi and ronaldinho in playmaker role. Bassically you're getting the deco position for him, with total freedom, and in exchange, you put Xavi/iniesta current position deeper on the field along the true DMC to give him extra defensive support.

The link with the upper guys would exist just as it exists now, but ronaldinho will play a much bigger part in the creation role than now with that system. And that is great, btw.

Deco doesn't have total freedom right now, Ronaldinho right now, is the free man for Barcelona, he can just stay in the opposition half, go where he likes and do what he likes. He is their biggest star and that's the tactical leniency he enjoys.

But once he sits back and concentrate on the playmaking role (which he will be brilliant at), his position within the line-up changes, only a little, but it changes.

Now he can choose to pick his options and whether he decides to pass or shoot (doesn't really try to dribble people anymore) it's totally up to him. But once he has that tactical responsibility of a playmaker, he is then required to service the likes of Henry and Eto'o with passes. He is no longer free to do as he likes as his primary duty now would be to create space and finding the players in front of him.

I'm not saying Ronaldinho won't be good at that, in fact, his vision and passing are simply amazing. However he's never been as professional as someone say, Kaka, (he missed 80 out of 173 training sessions during the first half of the season, mainly due to advertising and other commitments) I feel that Ronaldinho might not be too happy with this transition. With someone whom have been above tactics, to someone who must follow it.

Of course, that is pure speculation on my part, maybe it'll work great, I'm just worried with any major changes. Hopefully they'll find a winning formula, they sure have enough winning players now. :p

[retired_GodsMyWitness]

Originally posted by GingerFurball:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Omnislash:
But anyhow, if Barca fields 4 pure attacking players on at once it's not going to work. Somebody has to defend. Eto'o and Ronaldinho don't know how to, Messi way too small and he should be running at defenders not after them.

Why shouldn't it work?

If Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Henry and Messi are all in the same starting XI, I can't see many opposition full backs bombing forward to help their own teams attacks. </BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what people said about Brazil in the last World Cup with Ronaldo, Adriano, Ronaldinho and Kaka up front. Looking good on paper is one thing, getting it to work is another.

By using 4 attacking players, they might not be able to control the midfield as effectively and that may let the opposition take control of the game. Once you lose your midfield, no matter how brilliant your attackers are they will receive no support.

That's of course, even more speculation. Could be just concerning over nothing. I just like Barcelona's current tactics as it's working really well for them. But since they lost the title, maybe it would be good to change it.

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by Omnislash:

lol of course Xavi is great defensively, that's why I didn't name him. Iniesta is good, but if you heap defensive burden on him then his effectiveness will be limited. He was possibly Barcelona's best player over the whole season and his attacking football is what he does best. Right now he has Marquez and Xavi behind him and he does a great job in breaking up plays and making tackles, but that is different to if he is required to break up plays and tackle.

Iniesta has played behind Xavi and Deco quite many times this season, when Marquez, Edmilson and motta were out for low performance or injury. He played there in the CL final, in teh second half.

He has done well there when the line up required him to do it...granted he is not enough to play there alone. But besides another DM it would be a whole different story.

Also, with the 4 guys up front you don't need him to go on the offensive, you do need him to stay at his spot and use his creativity ,vision and creation (he has heaps of the three) to move the ball to the 4 guys in front of him. Nothing more, but nothing less.

He fits perfectly there imho.

Deco doesn't have total freedom right now

I know. Maybe I explained myself bad...cause my english sucks ,lol

Right now there are three midfielders in barcelona's 4-3-3. one DM and two CC (or pure midfielders) required both for offensive and defensive duties.

with this system you get one of the CC and "chain" him on the DM spot, limiting his former freedom to go up on the attack, but still giving him chances to play his creativity and vision to the top of his possibilities. This would be Xavi/iniesta.

in exchange you free the other CC of any defensive duties and give him complete freedom of action on the offensive. quid pro quo. This would be Ronaldinho.

hope its better understood now.

[retired_mystikalpharie]

Originally posted by Gav Stone:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Omnislash:
But anyhow, if Barca fields 4 pure attacking players on at once it's not going to work. Somebody has to defend. Eto'o and Ronaldinho don't know how to, Messi way too small and he should be running at defenders not after them.

Best thing Barca should do is simply rotate 4 players over the 3 attacking position. That way they can hold possession in midfield and not sacrifice defense, which was a weak point for Barca last season.

Ah but they will have six defenders on the pitch, as Yovan shot me down with yesterday when I made the same point.

If Barcelona are going to succeed next season, they do need some sort semblance of balance. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Gav, Capello has played several times with 4 forwards, Capello not Wenger or Rijkkard.

At Juve he had (occasionally) Viera and Emerson in the middle, Mutu and Del Piero on the wings and Ibra and Trez upfront. At Real, Raúl and Robinho on the wings and two strikers. Lippi has done that in Italy.

I have seen that formation several times. You need balance ofc but Messi and Eto’o on the wings can do a decent job, especially Eto’o.

[retired_mystikalpharie]

Originally posted by Herman Bloom:
Quite a brilliant thread this. Am awaiting the prize clown that every major club on this board seems to have.

I know it's been mentioned a bit on the last page, but what are the liklihoods of Barca signing a GK to really challenge Valdes? I guess it's kinda rare that a side has two really good keepers, and I know he has had some really good moments this season. But if most other areas of the team are going to have a large amount of competition for places, surely they should exert some pressure on him as well?

Close to zero, although I want a free signing like Pinto or Molina. We have signed a youth goalie for Barça B, apparently he will be the third goalie.

The problems of Valdés are mental. His low concentration at times for example. He was a good goalie with the ball on his feet, now he is awful because of the pressure of our (yes our) stadium. IMO he is not mentally strong to play at Barça.

[retired_mystikalpharie]

Originally posted by Herman Bloom:
I think it's a "what if" scenario ben. Should it come to the derby, or the CL final or such. How exactly would Frank fit them all in?

Other than that I'd agree. massive number of games they'll likely play. Injuries and suspensions would dictate it won't be often that all four are available. Especially with the amount of knee injuries that seem to effect La Liga.

Yeah THAT is the key.

In 1994 (pre-Bosman) we had 4 stars (Romário, Laudrup, Stoichkov and Koeman) and three places. It didn’t work at all.