[retired_littlegoldielocks]

don't see why people are talking about the 4 attackers so much.

barca will play 60+ games next year in all probability. not that hard to keep 4 into 3 happy considering.

[trotamundos]

I think it's a "what if" scenario ben. Should it come to the derby, or the CL final or such. How exactly would Frank fit them all in?

Other than that I'd agree. massive number of games they'll likely play. Injuries and suspensions would dictate it won't be often that all four are available. Especially with the amount of knee injuries that seem to effect La Liga.

[retired_littlegoldielocks]

i know. that's my only gripe with having mascherano, momo, gerrard, alonso and leiva actually. who plays in the big games?

shouldn't be a problem though. players get injured and rotated. rijkaard will just pick the team for the occassion. they'll just have to deal with it. their medals will probably console them.

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by yovan:
That’s the locker room.

I’m talking about tactics. Who picked Rijkaard? And Van Basten? (ask the Dutch of the forum), who tried to chance the tactic of Holland U21 in the Euro?

Laporta picked Rijkaard (And van Basten as an option should Rijkaard fail). Heeding advice of cruyff? most probably yes. During the 1st season its quite probable that Cruyff reccomended the 4-3-3 and Rijkaard gave it a shot. Its possible, but I don't know for sure. All I know is that it worked.

I doubt that, since then, Cruyff has had more influence than the one given to him by the media. The change to a 3-4-3 system in the middle of this season doesn't fit his doctrine at all (not because the system isn't liked by him, but because clearly Barça had not the players needed to make it work successfully), and the insistence of Rijkaard with that system doesn't fit with a Cruyff demand aswell.

Cruyff, the footballer, was an icon, a legend, but Cruyff the manager is the most influential person in our history. We didn’t have a style before the dream team and now we have a style, an evolution, without natural wingers, ok, but our style is the Ajax style.

Ajax has a striker, Babel, playing on left. The Ajax style is about attacking/attractive football, not about two natural wingers.

Still, I don't see where my argument fails. For starters Ajax has played with wingers for decades, doesn't matter what it is like right now. But that's not the argument I'm trying to make anyway.

My argument is that Barcelona was an offensive, stilish team since at least the 50s (I simply know too little about the history of the club before that) with the likes of Kubala playing in the team. Decades before Cruyff was even a known name Barcelona was already an exponent of offensive, quality football.

Then Cruyff came. He didn't bring offensive football with him. He just was the highest exponent at the moment of the dutch total football, the most admired offensive football of the time. He was the total player who could play anywhere, anytime. For sure he was a huge influence, but the offensive doctrine of Barcelona goes farther back than this.

As I said before, what cruyff did in barcelona as a player was a lot, and what he did as a coach was nothing short of a miracle. He turned a team used to lose into a proud winning machine, and with him Barcelona reached probably the highest peak of quality football of its history up to then.

Of course there's a legacy from that. A huge one. And I'm glad there it is such a legacy, btw, and that Cruyff still is a respected being within barcelona, for I rate him as one of the most intelligent persons in world football.

And the CL final and our attitude? At least Rijkaard has never disrespect a team.

Cruyff was rude and egocentrical. And clearly didn't really care about doing things softly. If he had to do something he would do it ,and to the hell with the consequences.

He did the right thing the wrong way. The era of the dream team was definitely over, and a transition was needed. The attitude of the team in the CL final came from four days of celebration of a league won in the last match, and the relax from a group of players who thought the final was won even before stepping into the pitch. Which, btw has a resemblance on what has happened this year, for barcelona has played all the league as if they thought they were already the champions without actually earning it.

It was a disaster, but I can't put all, or most, of the blame cruyff. He was to be blamed, yeah, but I think he had a lower responsability on what it happened than the team itself.

Anyway, the team had reached the end of a cycle and was the time for a renovation. Cruyff did this successfully (the roots of the team that won the cup winners' cup, the spanish cup, two leagues in a row, etc, the next years can be traced directly to him), but he did it in a harsh and very wrong way, treating players who had given everything for the club quite unfairly. But the rest?...it was ok for me.

There was a planning, you have a tactic and you try to fill the positions. They wanted to play 4-2-3-1 and Ronaldinho was the AMC of that team. Overmars, GarcÃ*a, Quaresma and Luis Enrique were the winger and Kluivert and Saviola the strikers, two players per position.

I insist: ronaldinho was the AMC of that team because it was at Barcelona because of Rosell and Laporta's desire. Not because of Rijkaard's. He never asked for him in the first place and since the start he saw that as an AMC within that system Ronaldinho didn't deliver what was clearly within him.

Rijkaard knew where to put him but it didn’t work. It’s completely different from not knowing where to play him.

Well, I just quoted what he reportedly said. I don't know if he said it or not. But if those words are true, Rijkaard had no idea where to play him back at that time.

We had a tactic and Ronaldinho was signed to be the AMC. It didn’t work, we signed Davids and we started playing 4-3-3.

And instantly ronaldinho advanced from being a massively succesfull player to be the best player within the spanih league. Enough proof he's best as a left wing that as AMC?. I don't know for that 4-5-1 system by rijkaard had some weak points (such as having no creativity in the midfield with motta-gerard, the initial two DMCs used by him) that clearly restricted his freedom if he wanted to play the ball, and the balls he could play if he wanted to go up the pitch. Maybe with another players he would've played great there? who knows

but for now what we can prove is that an AMC he played well but as AML he simply rocked the league. Which has been my point the whole thread

No, I didn’t say so.
punkskamonkey said: Ronaldinho has been fairly poor recently. You replied him and I replied you. Was, because the season is over.

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding here. I was answering a message from you where you quoted me. But well, who cares, I agree this year ronaldinho has been really low on form. Still, he has delivered results. But I agree: It doesn't mean anything for the low form is linked with a lack of work by him and that's a disgrace.

So in the end we're just both in agreement

I’m talking about this season, mainly because I don’t care about the past.

I do care about it. I mean: if a player as ronaldinho has done the fantastic 3 seasons he has done at barcelona I don't want to get rid of him just by a bad fourth one. He has promised to correct his errors and be the one he was through hard work and serious training. And I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because of those three fantastic seasons.

Had he been like this all those four years, I would sell him to the first bidder. but it is not the case-so yeah...I do care a bit about the past .

At Real Madrid with Capello he would have played less than Casssano.

At REal Madrid with capello, Ronaldinho would've NEVER lost 80 training sessions. Nor 40. Nor 20. Nor 10.

And so, he would've played every match.

Do you know that Ronaldinho is an adult? It’s like blaming your teacher or you father for being a little lazy ****.

Actually there's more truth on that than what you seem to give credit for. Cracks as Ronaldinho (others are different) need a specific guidance from the technical staff to never lose the right track. If that guidance is lacking, the player starts doing whatever he sees fit, and that's a disaster.

I repeat I don't lift the blame attached to ronaldinho. He has a lot of things to fix and work to do to make up for his errors this season. But I really believe he will do it. And doing it he will turn to be the best ronaldinho we have seen until now, for if with a terrible fitness such as the one displayed by him this season he has achieved the numbers he has, if fit he'll be nothing short of a hurricane.


[QUOTEThey aren’t enemies as I said but at work there are groups and Barça players aren’t different.[/quote]

Maybe its e lacking in my english. But I never said they were close friends. I said they're friends as they having a good relation in general terms. good understanding and communication.

I never said they hang out together at any time, or that they are close friends or within the same group of friends. I tried to make a point: Ronaldinho and Eto'o are on general good terms, even while now and then the occasional problem rises between them. To make it I said they were "friends". As I said, depends on the context you use that word in.

Gerard and Luque are friends of Eto’o, the others? If you have a source (not the polite, he is my friend Ronnie says all the time about ALL the players).

To back up what I say?. That they are in good relations?. That Eto'o is not a good actor. If he hated Ronaldinho, or had a bad relationship with him, it would be clearly seen either on the training field or in the pitch. You can "act" for a week or two, but on the long term you can't. And eto'o as I said has never been a good actor. And not a guy to shut up his mind. If he says he's in good terms with Ronaldinho, even with the casual misunderstanding or problem ,I firmly believe him.

Just as I believed everything he said in the two media outburst he had in this season. Eto'o has a big mouth and the timing of a nuclear bomb, but he's faithful and never heard him lie blatantly...so I believe what he says to the media regarding Ronnie.

BTW he also stated the only true friend in the media he made in barcelona was Gerard. That I believe too. That's why I tried to say that the word "friend" has many interpetations under many contexts...I was using it as I said above

[retired_stevesgrl]

some cracking discussion in here

[Nemesis]

This discussion about rijkaard's first year at barcelona is making me think that the line up I posted in the previous page may actually be exactly what Rijkaard has on mind. The 4-3-3 being a variable to play when the four stars aren't available.


as yovan said barcelona's first lineups with rijkaard were 4-5-1s with Ronaldinho as AMC and playmaker, two wingers, with two DMCs. The system always failed to deliver at the time, and one of the reasons was the general low standard of the team itself (other than ronaldinho, Savi, Puyol, and little else).

This might be what Rijkaard had in mind when Barcelona tried to get Henry last year. A step back to the initial 4-5-1 with a much more powerful line up in place. Eto'o or Henry instead of Overmars. Messi instead of Quaresma or Luis GarcÃ*a. Xavi and Deco/toure instead of Gerard and Motta. Eto'o or Henry instead of Saviola.

The quality quantum leap between that line up and the one Barcelona can put in the field right now with henry, messi, eto'o, deco, and toure in the team is simply amazing. What wasn't a workable thing back in 2003 may work now.

And that would mean all four would play at the same time.

Makes a lot of sense now. I didn't see how those four guys could be lined up in a 4-3-3 but the change over to 4-5-1 makes much more sense. And could work wonders...time will tell if indeed this is rijkaard's idea, or not. If it indeed is, Henry, Ronaldinho, Messi and Eto'o would play at the same time, backed up with a defence and contention midfield with a sound defensive basis and great players within them (Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Chivu (I hope he comes), Marquez)...

I still sense a terrific weak spot at the right back. But otherwise a line up like this would be fearsome:


[code]
----------------Valdes
Zambrotta--Puyol---Chivu--------Abidal (?)
-------Xavi/iniesta---Deco/toure
Messi--------Ronaldinho--------Eto'o/Henry
-------------Eto'o/Henry
[/quote]


Makes sense to me.

[runronnirun]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by punkskamonkey:
Was that a response to mine or R4M's post?

If it was mine then I'm willing to go with Figo and Ronaldo being better in their Barca spells; then Real only have Zidane left out of the 6 players up for debate which makes Barca 5 times better than Real :cool:

yours.

and it's really validating to hear all this praise for Barcelona, I really despaired for OTF after it seemed everyone here were Franco-loving fascists. </BLOCKQUOTE>

O/

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by Nick OGS20:
yours.

and it's really validating to hear all this praise for Barcelona, I really despaired for OTF after it seemed everyone here were Franco-loving fascists.

O/[/QUOTE]


I dismissed this comment at first for being blatantly OT, but I'd like to make a small comment.

Not every (and by far not the majority) of the Real Madrid supporters are franco-loving fascists. Just as much that not every (and by far not the majority) of the Barcelona supporters are catalonian independentist republicans.


In any case I think political comments of that kind are unneeded in a football discussion. But that's just me.

[retired_GodsMyWitness]

Originally posted by R4M:
This discussion about rijkaard's first year at barcelona is making me think that the line up I posted in the previous page may actually be exactly what Rijkaard has on mind. The 4-3-3 being a variable to play when the four stars aren't available.


as yovan said barcelona's first lineups with rijkaard were 4-5-1s with Ronaldinho as AMC and playmaker, two wingers, with two DMCs. The system always failed to deliver at the time, and one of the reasons was the general low standard of the team itself (other than ronaldinho, Savi, Puyol, and little else).

This might be what Rijkaard had in mind when Barcelona tried to get Henry last year. A step back to the initial 4-5-1 with a much more powerful line up in place. Eto'o or Henry instead of Overmars. Messi instead of Quaresma or Luis GarcÃ*a. Xavi and Deco/toure instead of Gerard and Motta. Eto'o or Henry instead of Saviola.

The quality quantum leap between that line up and the one Barcelona can put in the field right now with henry, messi, eto'o, deco, and toure in the team is simply amazing. What wasn't a workable thing back in 2003 may work now.

And that would mean all four would play at the same time.

Makes a lot of sense now. I didn't see how those four guys could be lined up in a 4-3-3 but the change over to 4-5-1 makes much more sense. And could work wonders...time will tell if indeed this is rijkaard's idea, or not. If it indeed is, Henry, Ronaldinho, Messi and Eto'o would play at the same time, backed up with a defence and contention midfield with a sound defensive basis and great players within them (Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Chivu (I hope he comes), Marquez)...

I still sense a terrific weak spot at the right back. But otherwise a line up like this would be fearsome:


[code]
----------------Valdes
Zambrotta--Puyol---Chivu--------Abidal (?)
-------Xavi/iniesta---Deco/toure
Messi--------Ronaldinho--------Eto'o/Henry
-------------Eto'o/Henry

Makes sense to me.[/QUOTE]


I still think 4 full-time attackers are way too much on the pitch, Brazil tried it and failed miserably at World Cup, Real Madrid tried it and they didn't win anything for 3 years. Especially considering Iniesta, Deco and Toure and all more attacking minded than defensive minded.

This formation won't guarantee them possession like now, even though fearsome on paper, I feel that the attack and defense lack that link between them. Which will be a key loss as there won't be any smooth transition for counter-attack or build-up play.

[retired_sacclover@yahoo]

Whats going to happen to Deco now that Rijkaard has come out and said he intends to play Ronaldinho behind a front 3?

Seeing as Yaya Toure or Xavi are to be the holding MC there doesnt seem to be a place for him.