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Old 11-05-2007, 08:38 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #191
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Rafalution:
<BLOCKQUOTE>which in my world automatically disqualifies retards, kids or crazy religious people.
and in my world religious people can still be of sound mind.


and if you are saying religious people are not of sound mind and shouldnt be making medical decisions, does that mean you would refuse to be treated by a religious doctor? </BLOCKQUOTE>

A doctor (while at work) HAS TO put his knowledge and logic AHEAD of any of his religious beliefs. As long as he does that I'm fine with having a religious doctor treating me.

I'm not saying that religious people are all crazy, they can be completely normal and even super smart people as long as they don't include any religious thought in their reasoning. The case we are arguing is a clear example of someone putting religion ahead of logic and that's when I believe religious people should be considered uncapable of making a decision.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:39 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #192
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red_Hector:
The passage of the bible in question mates...

<BLOCKQUOTE>And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people

Leviticus 17:10
...yeah how do you translate that into no transfusions mates? </BLOCKQUOTE>

You evil black-pudding eating bastards are going to Hell. Mwahahahaha.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:41 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #193
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Rafalution:
to all people saying the religious people are not of sound mind as they have illogical irrational beliefs do you believe in the following statement

'those who by their own free will choose to make medical decisions based on their faith as opposed to that of science and logic should have their decisions over-ruled if it is deemed in the best interest of the patient'?
I agree with the statement if we apply it to EVERYTHING, like we should legalize ALL drugs, euthanasia, self mutilations... for all people who make the decision on their own free will.

To me it's either the govt consider that we are too dumb to make our own decision and the doctors should have the power to overturn ours or the govt considers us as grown up and then nothing should be forbidden as long as you don't hurt/bother anyone else.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:43 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #194
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A doctor is trained to be non-judgemental. That means disregarding whatever prejudices he has about religious belief.

Whether or not he agrees with the reasons for refusing treatment, he has to accept their decision. If it can be proved legally that the patient was incapable of making decisions when refusing treatment, it can be overruled. If it can not be proved legally, then the patient's wishes have to be followed.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:51 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #195
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Quote:
or all people who make the decision on their own free will.
so you believe in free will? an irrational, illogical belief that is opposed by known science but that people cling on to because they 'feel' they have it and it brings meaning to their life and responsibility to their actions and they don't want to lose that even when presented with opposing evidence?

you my friend, should not be making any medical decisions anytime soon.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:54 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #196
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Quote:
Originally posted by LFCfan:
A doctor is trained to be non-judgemental. That means disregarding whatever prejudices he has about religious belief.

Whether or not he agrees with the reasons for refusing treatment, he has to accept their decision. If it can be proved legally that the patient was incapable of making decisions when refusing treatment, it can be overruled. If it can not be proved legally, then the patient's wishes have to be followed.
No he doesn't.

Hippocratic Oath -- Classical Version

"I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot."

Changed portions of the oath:

To teach medicine to the sons of my teacher. In the past, medical schools would give preferential consideration to the children of physicians.

To practice and prescribe to the best of my ability for the good of my patients, and to try to avoid harming them. This beneficial intention is the purpose of the physician. However, this item is still invoked in the modern discussions of euthanasia.

Never to do deliberate harm to anyone for anyone else's interest. Physician organizations in most countries have strongly denounced physician participation in legal executions. However, in a small number of cases, most notably Oregon[2] and the Netherlands[3], a doctor can perform euthanasia, by both his and the patient's consent.

To avoid violating the morals of my community. Many licensing agencies will revoke a physician's license for offending the morals of the community ("moral turpitude").

To avoid attempting to do things that other specialists can do better. The "stones" referred to are kidney stones or bladder stones, removal of which was judged too difficult for physicians, and therefore was left for surgeons (specialists). The value of specialization was recognized in that time. The range of knowledge and skills needed for the range of human problems has always made it impossible for any single physician to maintain expertise in all areas. This also highlights the different historical origins of the surgeon and the physician.

To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority. There may be other conflicting 'good purposes,' such as community welfare, conserving economic resources, supporting the criminal justice system, or simply making money for the physician or his employer that provide recurring challenges to physicians.

To avoid sexual relationships or other inappropriate entanglements with patients and families. The value of avoiding conflicts of interest isn't often questioned.

From wikipedia
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:01 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Rafalution:
<BLOCKQUOTE>or all people who make the decision on their own free will.
so you believe in free will? an irrational, illogical belief that is opposed by known science but that people cling on to because they 'feel' they have it and it brings meaning to their life and responsibility to their actions and they don't want to lose that even when presented with opposing evidence?

you my friend, should not be making any medical decisions anytime soon. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read my entire post? I said that if the entire society was based around free will then I'd be in favor of that yes but since it isn't what happened today shouldn't be allowed. Once again all I'm asking for is consistency, the parliament should make up its mind (one way or another) and change everything accordingly.

By that I mean that if this women can refuse blood transplant then euthanasia should be legal as well as suicide, drugs and even murder if both people agree to it...
Since I doubt that the government will ever go this way then if there are already laws preventing people from cutting their limbs or purely and simply killing themselves why not have a law saying that someone who's in a life and death situation's fate should be placed in the hands of doctors, no matter what this person thinks or want.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:06 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #198
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Semantics

You're putting your own interpretation on the oath.

Quote:
I will keep them from harm and injustice.
That doesn't say "I will provide treatment regardless of the person's wishes"

Quote:
To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority
Neither does that.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:08 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #199
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Quote:
Originally posted by LFCfan:
Semantics

You're putting your own interpretation on the oath.

<BLOCKQUOTE>I will keep them from harm and injustice.
That doesn't say "I will provide treatment regardless of the person's wishes"

Quote:
To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority
Neither does that. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't the "good" of the patient puts his life above his death?
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:11 PM   Mother dies after refusing blood Post #200
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Not necessarily
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