retired_jess29

i thought he did, but very very badly...?

retired_robynjones

i've seen plenty of lesser known players become coaches but ive seen top clubs linked with many regens as possible managers. LLM it would be fine

i can only really think of houllier in recent history who was never a player. even sven and wenger were players! god awful ones though!

retired_robynjones

oh and mourinho

but he worked through as coach/assistant!

retired_lrenfroe

Sir Alex Ferguson was never a player and look where it got him! </BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither was Roy Keane

hillbillylee

Ferguson definitely was a player himself!

retired_Cliffc

I've just copied down the previous histories for the 19 other Premiership managers in my game.

Everyone in the game is a regen (even the managers who used to be players) so it should be fairly balanced for the game.

It's from FM05 (2053) but I'd imagine it's similar for the new game.


Liverpool - Paul Reid - 33 caps for Scotland
Man U - Tony Byrne - 124 caps for Ireland
Ipswich - Jesper Pedersen - 85 caps for Denmark
Fulham - David Crawford - 57 caps for Scotland
Forest - Maurizio Gritti - 101 caps for Scotland
Arsenal - Anthony King - 95 caps for Australia
Derby - Andy Davies - No playing history - First job Stoke Assistant Manager
Villa - Stuart Mills - No playing history - First job Nottm Forest Coach
Swansea - Nick Williams - 28 caps for England
Spurs - Dean Wilson - No playing history - First job Torpedo Moscow Coach
Birrmingham - Gavin Reeves - No playing history - First job Wigan Assistant Manager
Newcastle - James Murphy - No playing history - First job Wolves Assistant Manager
West Ham - Kevin Hughes - No playing history - First job Hibs Coach
Barnsley - Matthew Ward - No playing history - First job Sheff Wed Assistant Manager
Blackburn - Mark Smyth - 81 caps for N. Ireland
Chelsea - Paul Fraser - 77 caps for Scotland
Man City - Ulrik Petersen - 42 caps for Denmark
Everton - John Brown - 68 caps for Scotland
Coventry - Emmanuel Issah - 43 caps for Nigeria


Conclusions:

I too have noticed some staff with no history going straight into management, but from this semi-scientific sample, it looks like this is a rarity, and most staff with no previous histories move into coaching/AM first.

There are no premiership managers with a playing history who have not achieved a significant ammount of caps for their country.

I will do the same with some other leagues, to see if this sample is applicable accross the board.

retired_v_meenucancer

i don't think the fm05 example is applicable, because as far as i know this started to be a problem in fm07, and presumably is still present in 08.

mudvayne

Looking at the statement critically, though - how many of them don't at least start as coaches, and move through Assistant Manager before taking that final step and becoming a Manager.

If anybody has a single real-world example of a manager taking over a club, say, at the Championship or higher level without experience as either a player, a coach, or an assistant, give us details (including age at time of hire.) </BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you are right and I'll try to say more about my opinion on the subject, as there is some misunderstanding.
Generally in real life nearly every manager was a player in the past. But it could vary from the world-wide known international (like Rijkaard) through national-wide known solid player, some local team loyal regular from low division up to a man which career ended at the age of 19 after a injury.
I agree that usually only a player with a reputation can have a manager work without coaching or assisting first. A world-wide known international can got a top club or NT; national-wide known solid player can took a decent club from his country; a loyal low division regular can be appointed as a manager of his own club.
But players who didn't make a career as player (due to injury or lack of skills) but want to stay in the football, usually have to make all the coaching career up to (possible) top.
That was about the real life. Now in FM we have only that first group of players - internationals, solid national or loyal low division player - they have made their player careers (different levels, but it was a full career, it was not abrupted), retired and maybe got a staff profiles to say in football. But the players who was sacked from the team in age 22 with low quality, or decided to retire after some hard injury at 19, they will not get a staff profile in FM, so they are gone, there will not be a staff in FM. So, FM have to generate new, "regen" managers to be able to have a wide pool. And remember also that some managers played in the past or begins their coaching in such low divisions that are not playable in FM, so the teams are not there or are not used in computing (hiring, sacking, promoting, reputation gaining etc).

Will FM someday simulate such career paths? Maybe, but it will take time to write a code, to test and it have to be computing quickly, because if not, than there will be moaning that FM is too slow.

Sorry for my not-so-fluent English and for any misstyping I've made.

retired_Cliffc

Same as previous experiment. Here are the Championship managers:

Southampton - Patrik Nilsson - 44 caps for Sweden
Peston - Matthew Quinn - No playing history - First job Norwich Assistant Manager
Plymouth - No Manager
Crewe - Paul McCarthy - 47 caps for Ireland
Bournemouth - Paul Anderson - 53 caps for Scotland
Charlton - David Francis - No playing history - First job Luton Assistant Manager
Oxford - Steve Grant - 70 caps for England
Norwich - Paul Daly - 63 caps for England
Cardiff - Matt Laws - 72 caps for England
Boro - Eduardo - 104 caps for Brazil
Bristol City - Steve Henry - 92 caps for England
Bradford - Mark Ellis - 89 caps for Wales
Milwall - Stuart Francis - No playing history - First job Bradford Coach
Bolton - Michael Ellis - 29 caps for England
Wolves - Kevin Shepherd - - No playing history - First job Hibs Coach
Stoke - Andy Griffiths - No playing history - First job Stoke Assistant Manaer
Oldham - Matthew Barnett - No playing history - First job Doncaster Assistant Manager
Sheff Wed - Alexander Wolf - No playing history - First job Man City Coach
Rotherham - Steve Wilkinson - No playing history - First job Hitchin Assistant Manager
Watford - Matthew Webb - 84 caps for England
Reading - Steven Thompson - No playing history - First job Charlton Assistant Manager
Doncaster - Gary Richards - 42 caps for England
QPR - Jesus - No playing history - First job Brentford Manager (Brentford in Leaue 1 at the time)
Portsmouth - Gavin Stewart - No playing history - First job Hamilton Coach


We see our first manager who moves straight into management.

As I've said. It seems more regular than my sample shows, so perhaps these managers just don't last?

Dundee United was used as an example in the opening post, so I'll now do the SPL

Hibs - Scott Barnes - No playing history - First job Sheff Wed Assistat Manager
Aberdeen - Scott Wilson - 17 caps for Scotland
Airdrie - Martin Richie - No playing history - First job Motherwell Manager (Motherwell in SPL at the time)
Raith - Henrik Christensen - 51 caps for Denmark
Gretna - Michael Clarke - No playing history - First job St. Mirren Manager (St. Mirren in 3rd Division at the time)
Rangers - Alex Campbell - 65 caps for Scotland
Celtic - Niklas Petterson - 91 caps for Sweden
Clyde - Richard Simpson - No playing history - First job Derby Coach
Brechin - Peter Hamilton - No playing history - First job Lincoln Assistant Manager
Dundee - Andrew Fletcher - 51 caps for England
Hearts - Robert Fowler - No playing history - First job Portsmouth Assistant Manager
Falkirk - Arie Mulder - 37 caps for Holland

Another 2 managers straight into managemet, one at the top, one at the bottom.

Still no uncapped players in management.

Conclusions:

Some managers with no history have gone into management at a high level, and some at not so high. I'm sure a larger sample would extend these results.

There is a severe lack of undecorated players making it into management or coaching, which they should do, either due to not making the cut, or due to career ending injury.



Here is the same list for current pemiership managers, to see what the list should look like

Man U - Alex Ferguson - uncapped - prolific journeyman striker in Scotland - appointed player coach at Falkirk - Later East Stirlingshire manager
Arsenal - Arsene Wenger - Ametuer player in french lower leagues - made 12 professional apearances for Strasbour and became youth coach there.
Everton - David Moyes - Journeyman player in Enland and Scotland (below premiership) - appoited Preston Manager after ending career there.
Reading - Steve Coppell - 42 England caps - Man U player - retired aged 28 due to no sucess on various operations to ure injuries. - first job Crystal Palace Manager
Liverpool - Rafael Benetez - Real Madrid youth and reserve player - retired aged 25 due to persistant injury problems - started management with various Real Madrid youth and reserve teams
Blackburn - Mark Hughes - 72 caps for Wales - decorated top flight career - appointed Wales Manager on retirement from playing
Portsmouth - Harry Redknapp - uncapped - initialy played for west ham, dropping down the divisions as he got older. First job Assisant manager at Bournmouth - Made manager 2 years later
Boro - Gareth Southgate - 57 caps for England - largely solid but quiet premiership career - First job Middlesborough Manager, at whih point he retired from playing for the club
Derby - Billy Davies - undecorated career - mostly in Scotland - First Job as Motherwell manager, immediately after ending playing career with them.
Villa - Martin O'Neill - 64 caps for Ireland - Decorated career - First job Grantham Town Manager
Sunderland - Roy Keane - 66 caps for Ireland - Highy decorated career - First job Sunderland Manager
West Ham - Alan Curbishley - no caps - Top flight player - First job - Player Coach at Charlton, folowed by joint Manager at Chalton folowed by Manager at Charlton
Fulham - Lawrie Sanchez - 3 caps for Northern Ireland Reading and Wimbledon player - first job - player Manager at Silgo Rovers, before moving to reserve team manager at Wimbledon
Newcastle - Sam Allardyce - journeyman player below the top flight - first job Player Assistant Manager at West Brom, followed by Player Manager at Limerick
Man City - Sven Goran Eriksson - unremarkable sweedish lowe league player - retired aged 27 due to knee injury - First job Assistant Manager to Tord Grip at Degerfors IF and promoted to manager a year later when Grip left to manage Sweden
Chelsea - Avram Grant - No playing history - Youth team coach at Hapoel Petah Tikva from age 18 - Promoted to Head Coach 14 years later
Bolton - Gary Megson - no caps - top flight journeyman - Player Assistant Manager at Norwich and then Norwich Manager
Spurs - Juande Ramos - Lower league spanish player - retired aged 28 due to knee injury - first job Alcoyano Manager (a former club)
Wigan - Steve Bruce - No caps - Othrwise illustrious playing career - First job Sheffield United Player Manager
Birmingham - None



Conclusions:

All premiership managers have some sort of playing history except for Avram who has been coaching since he was 18.

In FM almost all managers should have some form of playin history.

Some players should be taking up coaching if their career is ended by injury. I've never seen this happen in FM.

Players with an interest in staying in football should be trying to take up coaching roles alongside their playing duties towards the end of their careers. Never seen this in FM either (except for those n the database at the start of the game). In fact, when offered a coaching role, players usually instantly retire from playing.

Players should be prepared to drop down divisions to take up a Player Manager role. Never seen a player manager in FM other than those at the start of the game.

Players moving into coaching/management should be lot more likely to do so at the club they have ended their career. This is very rare in FM, clubs and players should be more willing to make this happen, and encourage their staff to take other roles at the club if their playing days are numbered.

Assistant managers should be given a lot more consideration when the manager's job at the same club becomes vacant. Don't think I've ever seen this happen, but I think caretaker managers is something that was improved for FM07 or 08, so if someone can confirm if this is now more regular that would be great.

retired_w0lfpack1

Way to go, nick..., shining some serious light onto the matter.

Before reading your conclusions, my off the cuff feeling was "Wow, it looks like its about right - except that there need to be some uncapped players who go into management, and the inexperienced Motherwell manager seems odd to me."

As to your conclusions, especially from this last point, nothing to disagree with.

This, true, and they should probably also be willing to move for a Player/Coach role if its obvious that they are no longer needed at / playing for / their current club.

I've had players qualify for their coaching badges, but sit out the final season of their playing career in my Reserves, unwilling to make a move to a lower-prestige club - which they should be, to kick-start their coaching career.

Yeah - there certainly are "career Assistants" IRL, but I've never seen my own Assistant move on to become a first-tier manager .. and I've never left a club to see the club promote my Assistant in my wake. In fact, I've never seen my former Assistants take on manager roles, full stop.

Small sample size, I'm sure, but I do agree with your conclusion.