retired_jess0323

Also they clearly stated that this patch is a BETA. I for 1 appreciate them putting it out so promptly, even though I found nothing fundamentally wrong with the out of the box version. I find it hard enough waiting until October for the update all this is going to do is push back release dates in future. At £25.00 this is the bargain of the century. :thup:

retired_sultrie

This patch is god awful. Didn't have the closing down problem before but now I do and I'm losing 8-0 and 8-1 to teams like Barnsley as Manchester United. What the hell is going on?

retired_ncbarry

I've read all of your posts Kriss, and to sum them all up: "I'm a tester and I know what I'm talking about, but I can't talk about the testing procedures(and no one else will either). But let me tell you, you're wrong oh so wrong! Of course I can't tell you why because it's a state secret." I think you should concentrate on getting the testers to do a better job than make the same post day after day.

arman920

I've read all of your posts Kriss, and to sum them all up: "I'm a tester and I know what I'm talking about, but I can't talk about the testing procedures(and no one else will either). But let me tell you, you're wrong oh so wrong! Of course I can't tell you why because it's a state secret." I think you should concentrate on getting the testers to do a better job than make the same post day after day. </BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you should read quite a lot more forum post before making a statement like that

retired_nsample

Perhaps the most perceptive comment so far- the game has evolved and grown in line with its fanbase but have the resources allocated to testing and QA been adjusted accordingly? Sometimes the most important resources are overlooked in the frantic quest for volume, numbers and deadlines

No one expects perfection in a game as complex as FM, but surely it is not too much to ask that the first version of the game does not have huge, immediately noticable, bugs which will cause massive dissatisfaction with those buyers who do not appreciate the whole testing procedure problem ( like some of the comments in this thread and all the other rants in the forum )

Anyway we have all learned something from this thread at least.

retired_samanthateo

Having read lots of posts on this and several other forums discussing FM 08, I thought I would add something to the debate.

Although I am not a Beta tester for FM; I do Beta test for another games company.

In my experience, I have found that it is only possible to fully test a game when it is getting pretty close to the release date.

Until then, it has been possible to check some aspects of a game, but it is entirely different when the so called 'finished article' is to be tested.

The vast complexity of a game like FM makes it impossible to check every variable unless there is an infinite amount of time to do this.

I have bought the CM and FM series for years, and believe this is their best effort yet. The game itself is much better in my opinion than FM07.

The game I believe, will become much more reallistic and enjoyable than earlier versions; but we must be patient.

The comments on this board (especially on the bugs forum) giving 'this game is crap' etc are obviously posted by morons.

The idea to post a beta patch in my opinion was good. Unfortunately, many people obviously don't know what a beta patch is.

The best thing everyone can do, is to play the game as usual, posting anything they think may be a bug, and stop screaming at SI for instant fixes.

SI have said they are working on a fix. They have a history of patching their games. I believe they will strive to make the game that they too want us to enjoy. Unlike some other software companies, it is very much in their interests to do this.

Give SI the information they need in the form of bug reports. Save your game at that point in case they need it. Play a few games of FM to get used to the new season and new features. Install the next patch when available. Carry on bug reporting etc.

This is the only way we will get the game that everyone wants. No games for PCs are ever perfect on release. It is not reallistic to expect they will be.

retired_atticus_mathers

Sorry, but this goes for pretty much every game out there, so I don't see why this would lead to more problems for SI.

This is incorrect. You do have control over time in a project. Software project management has more to do with time management than anything else. From the explanations about testing procedures I read on these forums I gather that SI is using a very old-fashioned and inefficient testing method. Modern developers have long switched to fully automated testing and unit testing to take care of the brunt of the testing work, leaving only a small part for human testers. Especially considering the relatively minor user input in FM, the game engine is the perfect candidate for full automated testing.

If one tweak in the engine can break something else and that is not discovered until a QA person has looked at it, there is something really wrong in the development process at SI. In any of my (very complex) projects I run a full automated test suite after every feature addition or tweak. This suite gives me a full report on anything that is broken or falls outside of certain given parameters. With the right automated tests set up, the closing down bug would have been discovered instantly, or immediately after the test suite ran after committing the code (likely the next morning).

If SI is using these methods, they are not using them correctly or enough.

retired_laurag

Perhaps the most perceptive comment so far- the game has evolved and grown in line with its fanbase but have the resources allocated to testing and QA been adjusted accordingly? Sometimes the most important resources are overlooked in the frantic quest for volume, numbers and deadlines

No one expects perfection in a game as complex as FM, but surely it is not too much to ask that the first version of the game does not have huge, immediately noticable, bugs which will cause massive dissatisfaction with those buyers who do not appreciate the whole testing procedure problem ( like some of the comments in this thread and all the other rants in the forum )

Anyway we have all learned something from this thread at least. </BLOCKQUOTE>

Top post! :thup:

retired_B_RAN

Yet look at the finished product. There is a whole army of in-house testers and a full QA department, and yet THIS is what we get. This series was far better when SI was a very small crew and relied almost exclusively on forum posters as beta testers. That's because SI would not have released this game. It would have delayed this game until it was ready.

I believe those testers are doing their jobs, and SI is doing its level best as well. But Sega is ruining everything. Because THAT is where the market pressure is coming from. I defy Matt or anyone else at Sega to tell me that business practices and policies have not changed since Sega got onboard. Why else would we see decisions and behavior that we never saw before from SI?

I've played this series for more than a decade, and I've been a beta tester in the past. Never before has there been a release or beta patch with such monumental bugs.

This is the first time that I have actually thought a version of this series was bad. It's just plain terrible in its present state, even with the beta patch. It is unenjoyable, and I've been unable to tolerate playing it since I bought it.

Sega has ruined it all. Before Sega entered into the equation, I rarely had anything negative to say about the game series or the development team. It's no coincidence that we've seen some terrible decisions since Sega became involved. The best thing that could happen for this series would be for Sega to disappear and for SI to focus solely on making FM for the PC and Mac. No FM Live, no handhelds, no game consoles, no other nonsense.

I still trust that the core team at SI will get this game corrected in due time, but I believe 100% that the "commercial considerations" and "market pressures" are coming from Sega. It's Sega's influence and decisions that have ultimately caused these problems. In the past, SI delayed releases if it was necessary to get it right. But this release proves that the policy has changed. FM08 was released before it was ready, and I blame that entirely on Sega.

retired_flashgaza

I'm getting a bit bored of people claiming to know everything about testing/beta patches etc..

Fact is, this game is not ready for release, so shouldn't have been.

The communication from Sega/SI is poor regarding the final patch. Every day I'm on this site, as I'm sure are many others waiting for details. As the game isn't worthy of playing until this "final" patch is released.

Si, in my humble opinion, not as one of the people on here claiming to know everything about testing, but as a loyal customer to the series, you have let your customers down, and are lucky to be in a genre with such little competition.

If the boys at Championship Manager ever got there act together, you could very well have lost a considerable amount of your customer base from this.

I bid you all goodnight.

Ps - to the fella above that called people "morons" for saying the game is crap, mate, take your head out your geeky little world and come into the year 2007, when people are asked to stump up £25 for a game they wait 12 months for, do you think that it is unreasonable for that game to be bug-free? I dont, and I'm certainly not a moron.